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391 Replies Latest reply on Oct 24, 2017 5:33 PM by CadSoft Guest

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technolomaniac Jan 18, 2017 1:27 PM Previous Next

Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi All - Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether. Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback: Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement. Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected. If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days. I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it). The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money. WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example. Point is, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us *at all* to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business. As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all. We know this. We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories. To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model. Not helpful. Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data". Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine. And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data. If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion. Again, not helpful. (Read: strategy = doomed). "So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a *paid* version) and reading it? What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?" So here's the deal...We can do better here. So we will. Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on without need of internet connection *except when you first install it* (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place): in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req. So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good. You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection. Caveat: to install an update, you will need to login. The update server (which issues the new version...e.g. 8.1 or 8.2. or 8.0.1, etc.) requires that you login and get the update, but beyond that, logout. Thus if you want to go off-grid in a mountain cabin somewhere, get your license at Starbucks (blagh! I understand they have 'free' wifi, but no frappucinos! ...that stuff is bad for you) then get your license and go on your merry way up to the snow drenched peaks. When you hear from the other mountaineers or your local yodeler that a new version of EAGLE is available...download, login, get your license, get your 'decaf double-pump vanilla non-fat latte macchiato' and head back up the slopes. Point being, we can do the freeware better. So we will. Hope this is clear. Let us know if you have questions! Best regards, Matt Berggren Director - Autodesk @technolomaniac hackaday.io/matt

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CadSoft Guest Jan 18, 2017 1:42 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 1. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Am 18.01.2017 um 20:26 schrieb Matt Berggren: Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data". Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine. But we still don't have software to edit the data that lives on our machines, after maybe years of payment. Fantastic!

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CadSoft Guest Jan 18, 2017 2:45 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 2. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

But we still don't have software to edit the data that lives on our machines, after maybe years of payment. Fantastic! Yep. I could live with this "subscription" model, when it would look like: You pay monthly/yearly, get the license data (key/installation code) as it was before with the old system. For each new release while still under subsciption, you can download a new license key/installation code. If you at any point decide to stop the subscription you keep the latest installation code/key and you can stay with this last version forever and also reinstall whenenver necessary. No server needed, no internet connection, just an account where you can download the latest license file/install code. I'm not going to let any company decide how long a software is going to run on my computer. I bought it I own it (the license). Markus

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CadSoft Guest Jan 18, 2017 2:45 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 3. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

But we still don't have software to edit the data that lives on our machines, after maybe years of payment. Fantastic! Yep. I could live with this "subscription" model, when it would look like: You pay monthly/yearly, get the license data (key/installation code) as it was before with the old system. For each new release while still under subsciption, you can download a new license key/installation code. If you at any point decide to stop the subscription you keep the latest installation code/key and you can stay with this last version forever and also reinstall whenenver necessary. No server needed, no internet connection, just an account where you can download the latest license file/install code. I'm not going to let any company decide how long a software is going to run on my computer. I bought it I own it (the license). Markus

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technolomaniac Jan 18, 2017 3:22 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 4. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Markus Thanks for your reply...Let me take a swing at this: But we still don't have software to edit the data that lives on our machines, after maybe years of payment. Fantastic! Yes you do. You have the freeware version and if you commit to the subscription version for some period of time (a month, a year), you will have all of the editing features enabled for all layers (whilst ensuring you get everything new that comes down the line like obstacle avoidance in routing, push and shove routing, better hierarchy, better design reuse, improved library editing, etc). There's of course a quid pro quo: just as you are subscribing to the product and betting on us, we need to be transparent about what we're adding and are incentivized or rather: obliged, to continue to deliver those capabilities which grow alongside the changing industry. Point being, if you need to open a file, you always have the free version to fall back on. If you need to edit, you only pay for what you need when you need it, and when you no longer need to, you can disable your subscription and save the single, monolithic price of a piece of perpetual SW. You pay monthly/yearly, get the license data (key/installation code) as it was before with the old system. Not going to this model and I guess Im unclear just how would this model work with subscription anyway? When it times out, you still dont have what you are trying to achieve which sounds like a perpetual license. Adobe, Microsoft, etc all use a subscription model these days, having moved away from an activation code both to protect their investment in new feature development, whilst making it easier for more people to gain access to new tools. The fact is that the activation code model does little to ensure both the security of a license whilst incentivizing the company making the SW to continue to develop the tools (you buy it, you get what you bought...no guarantees for more, it's all based on trust whether they decide to release an 8.1, 8.2, 8.3, etc). We can scale development with honest revenues and the easiest way to achieve that is to make it easier for a user to get software and pay for it. A single, monolithic price of $1650 is out of reach of many people with a commercial product vision, and having already enabled a 6-layer license for education for free, we can expect that this too is another way to get EAGLE into the hands of more people at a lower price point. An example: if you look at a $500 / yr sub across the avg 3 year release cycle, the product cost came down $150...if you paid monthly and spend 6 months designing and 6 months going to market, then you end up with an even lower total cost of ownership! For each new release while still under subscription, you can download a new license key/installation code. If you at any point decide to stop the subscription you keep the latest installation code/key and you can stay with this last version forever and also reinstall whenenver necessary. And if you were on Monthly? If you were on yearly? Seems you are conflating the two models or maybe I'm unclear. No server needed, no internet connection, just an account where you can download the latest license file/install code. I'm not going to let any company decide how long a software is going to run on my computer. In fact, that is precisely what you get with this model; it is more licensing flexibility rather than less. Sure, you have to sign in. But you never lose your right to view data. Hope that is clear! Best regards, Matt Autodesk. 1 of 1 people found this helpful Actions

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CadSoft Guest Jan 18, 2017 4:42 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 5. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

You pay monthly/yearly, get the license data (key/installation code) as it was before with the old system. Not going to this model and I guess Im unclear just how would this model work with subscription anyway? Yes monthly was not chosen very clever here. From the speed of development in the history of CadSoft, I was used to spending ~500€ every 2-3 years or so on an update (we are a non-profit organisation). I got my license key/installation code and could install the product on any machine in lab, office, laptop, homeoffice, wherever I need to have it, fire it up, runs. (We have the required number of licenses) No Internet needed, FlexLM drama etc. If the computer goes bonkers, reinstall, put license key, works (doesn't matter where. We do field campaigns on ships, rain forrest, whatever. Internet not always available.). If I'm at some point unsatisfied with how the product evolves, I can just stay at this revision, that most likely will still work fine for a long time maybe even with the last operating system anyone will need (Win10). When it times out, you still dont have what you are trying to achieve which sounds like a perpetual license. I guess you are correct. Adobe, Microsoft, etc all use a subscription model these days, Yes and that is exactly the reason why im still running Windows 7 and Office 2010. Activate once, keeps running. If stuff breaks down in the middle of nowhere its already getting tricky (I guess it runs 30 days without being activated) having moved away from an activation code both to protect their investment in new feature development And who is protecting my investment in the product the last 15 years by not offering a non-permanent license anymore? All my efforts I put into libraries and such? I even paid for a V7 license to support the development of the product and actually till today do my designs in V6.6. , whilst making it easier for more people to gain access to new tools. I still wait for the features promised to be in V7 already... The fact is that the activation code model does little to ensure both the security of a license whilst incentivizing the company making the SW to continue to develop the tools (you buy it, you get what you bought...no guarantees for more, it's all based on trust whether they decide to release an 8.1, 8.2, 8.3, etc). Yeah you buy it, but you own it at least. If you see at some point noone is listening to the customer base and the features you lack are not comeing, you just don't buy the next upgrade, but you still have a functional Software and not a nice file viewer We can scale development with honest revenues and the easiest way to achieve that is to make it easier for a user to get software and pay for it. I still think the 1650 price tag is in the range of what competitors are asking for their annual "subscription/maintenance" however you name it. As written above, I can plan on spending a fixed amount over a certain range. A single, monolithic price of $1650 is out of reach of many people with a commercial product vision, and having already enabled a 6-layer license for education for free, I didn't ask for a free 6 layer version, I was fine with the reduced price for Educational use. I will not complain though. Just send everyone that qualifies for it a free registration code and things are fine we can expect that this too is another way to get EAGLE into the hands of more people at a lower price point. An example: if you look at a $500 / yr sub across the avg 3 year release cycle, the product cost came down $150... if you paid monthly and spend 6 months designing and 6 months going to market, then you end up with an even lower total cost of ownership! As I said I have no problem with the pricing scheme as it was, I have a problem with all this online login activation blahfoo and that I don't have a fully functional, reinstallable software after subscription runs out. Why don't you combine both models and let the users decide? If the software is installed via the classical method with licensefile/installationcode it's possible and just works. If the user wants to upgrade to next major release, he pays the upgrade price and its fine. If not he can be happy with his old version. And if one wants to rent the software because it's cheaper for his purposes he can let EAGLE login to his autodesk subcription every 14 days and be happy too. I bet 90% of the community prefer the first scenario. And if you were on Monthly? If you were on yearly? Seems you are conflating the two models or maybe I'm unclear. Yeah I think more in "long term subscription" like a year or 3 years or so. In fact, that is precisely what you get with this model; it is more licensing flexibility rather than less. Sure, you have to sign in. But you never lose your right to view data. Yes but the right to work with the software Markus

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e14candies Jan 18, 2017 6:24 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 6. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Of course it does take big money to pay good programmers/engineers and staff, Autodesk has expenses to cover & they'd like to make more than bank interest profit off of their investment--this revenue simply must be supplied by Eagle users. Here is part of an old 'net post regarding upgrades (From James Morrison): 2) And you can upgrade and only pay the difference (exception upgrade from light). That fact alone will save $1000's if you have plans to scale. CadSoft doesn't advertise this enough, IMHO. Upgrades are a very minimum cost. The highest license cost $280 to upgrade to EAGLE 5. A paid upgrade cycle is about 3 years. Currently full new license is about $1500US. So all in all it is quite reasonable for what you get. 7) Free support for life. If you pay for a real license that includes phone support. And it's actually pretty good. And an involved community existed for further support. So for the current Eagle users who have already invested in Eagle over the years, what will be their upgrade costs now? Certainly a savings or discount over those who have not been users. This code be implemented as a one-time discount code--maybe that will spur some to stay on the ship. -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

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rick_b Jan 18, 2017 6:33 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 7. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Matt Berggren said in his blog: "What about the $169, 6-Layer Make License? The $169 non-commercial Maker license lives on and will continue to live on for the foreseeable future. This is a great tool for people requiring that extra bit of horsepower for their personal projects!" I purchased this last year with the expectation of upgrading to the next major version, but I see no mention of it on the Autodesk website. Details please. -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 1:08 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 8. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Matt, so to be clear with V8 we are obtaining a new copy of the software based on subscription that has nothing to do with the previous versions we paid for or where those were installed and used as I don't see the words upgrade used anywhere. I am a licensee of Unity3D. They too have gone the subscription route. They offered existing PRO customers a 50% reduction in their yearly subscription cost with an option to renew at that same price for a second year. Will Autodesk be offering any incentives to keep their existing customers? Glenn On 1/18/2017 2:26 PM, Matt Berggren wrote: Hi All - Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether. Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback: Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement. Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected. If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days. I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it). The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money. WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example. Point it, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us at all to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business. As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all. We know this. We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories. To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model. Not helpful. Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data". Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine. And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data. If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion. Again, not helpful. (Read: strategy = doomed). "So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a paid version) and reading it? What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?" So here's the deal...We can do better here. So we will. Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on without need of internet connection except when you first install it (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place): *in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req. * So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good. You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection. Caveat: to install an update, you will need to login. The update server (which issues the new version...e.g. 8.1 or 8.2. or 8.0.1, etc.) requires that you login and get the update, but beyond that, logout. Thus if you want to go off-grid in a mountain cabin somewhere, get your license at Starbucks (blagh! I understand they have 'free' wifi, but no frappucinos! ...that stuff is bad for you) then get your license and go on your merry way up to the snow drenched peaks. When you hear from the other mountaineers or your local yodeler that a new version of EAGLE is available...download, login, get your license, get your 'decaf double-pump vanilla non-fat latte macchiato' and head back up the slopes. Point being, we can do the freeware better. So we will. Hope this is clear. Let us know if you have questions! Best regards, Matt Berggren Director - Autodesk @technolomaniac hackaday.io/matt -To view any images and attachments in this post, visit: https://www.element14.com/community/message/213345

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 2:19 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 9. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Matt Berggren schrieb: Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription OK, so EAGLE is dead. At least for me. You might however consider offering two alternative licensing models: one as a subscription, and one for buying. (The latter should work as before: you get a key, you own the software.) Tilmann

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 2:23 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 10. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Matt Berggren schrieb: Adobe, Microsoft, etc all use a subscription model these days Their subscription models are definitely keeping me from ever using that software. Just because others are doing it wrong, it's not the right way. Tilmann

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 3:28 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 11. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 19.01.2017 09:19, Tilmann Reh wrote: Matt Berggren schrieb:

Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription

OK, so EAGLE is dead. At least for me. You might however consider offering two alternative licensing models: one as a subscription, and one for buying. (The latter should work as before: you get a key, you own the software.) Tilmann Yep, thats what I suggested. And for me also the only option.

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rachaelp Jan 19, 2017 4:07 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 12. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Matt, I already had my most pressing concern answered to my satisfaction by Jorge which was relating to still being able to run EAGLE on multiple machines as I need to run it up across at least 3 different machines in my lab, but it seems I can still do that so all is good there. If I was pressed on the subscription issue, I would say that I do much prefer to just buy the software outright, but if subscription is the only way from now on then so be it, I will deal. Having to activate the license with an Autodesk account isn't really something that will often be an issue for me as my machines are always on the internet but I can see why others my find this more problematic. I do understand why you are changing it, but I think it's a very sensitive subject for a lot of people though because of the debacle with the licensing when v7 was first released, so any changes in this area are going to come under a lot of scrutiny from the loyal EAGLE user base who stuck with CadSoft previously. I do wonder if it would be possible to satisfy the need for a permanent license which doesn't expire within your new licensing system though? How about the following as licensing options? 1) Free license. Activate initially and lasts forever. Upgrading to new versions would simply require a one time server activation each time they upgraded. 2) Monthly license. Activate at start of month. Software will run for 1 calendar month and then attempt to re-activate with the server. Autodesk account could be set up to either auto renew or a one off payment requiring a new purchase, this would ensure people didn't buy another month without realising they would be doing so, or forgetting to cancel a direct debit. This is one of my issues with monthly subscription software, it's easy to forget to cancel the subscription and that can be annoying. Upgrades to new versions will be accessible so long as a valid subscription still exists and as per free would require activating with the server. 3) 1/2/3 Year licenses. As per monthly but for longer periods of time. Full access to any upgrades within this period as per the monthly license. At the end of the 1/2/3 year period it could be possible to offer to either a) take out another subscription, b) cancel any direct debits (if a one was set up) and discontinue use, or c) Make an additional payment to convert the longer term fixed period licenses to permanent licenses so people could continue at their current version (or versions within the same release version) indefinitely. See below. 4) Permanent license. This would require activation once at initial setup and then run forever. Upgrades would be available within the same version, so if it were a v8 subscription then upgrades would be available for all v8 release versions. Updates would require activation as per the other licenses. The software must be accessible for download and installation and activation indefinitely to support peoples use of their permanent license. Updates to the next version e.g. v9 would be offered at an upgrade cost rather than the full cost, just like happens at the moment. I think all of these could be covered by the Autodesk licensing system, hopefully without too much difficulty and without conflicting with the objectives of Autodesk, and I think they might satisfy most of what people would require. I don't think you'd have to have a strange hybrid of the old and new licensing systems within the one piece of software.... Best Regards, Rachael 1 of 1 people found this helpful Actions

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Joop14 Jan 19, 2017 4:59 AM (in response to rachaelp) 13. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

rachaelp wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 11:07 4) Permanent license. This would require activation once at initial setup and then run forever. Upgrades would be available within the same version, so if it were a v8 subscription then upgrades would be available for all v8 release versions. Updates would require activation as per the other licenses. The software must be accessible for download and installation and activation indefinitely to support peoples use of their permanent license. Updates to the next version e.g. v9 would be offered at an upgrade cost rather than the full cost, just like happens at the moment. Not acceptable. The permanent license must work the same way like in older versions. No need to activate again when you replace your computer. What if they pull the plug from the activation server? The old license system has been working fine for many years. There's absolutely NO REASON to change that. Anti-piracy motives are a joke. We will see how fast a pirated & patched copy will appear on the internet/torrents. As usual, the need for internet connection will bother legitimate users but will not stop piracy. -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com 1 of 1 people found this helpful Actions

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Justynb Jan 19, 2017 5:08 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 14. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Matt Berggren wrote on Wed, 18 January 2017 14:26 WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example. Point it, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us at all to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business. As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all. We know this. We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories. To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model. Not helpful. Hi Matt, We don't know what will happen in the future with respect to licensing and activations for Eagle, and its overall direction. Don't forget that these were the same assurances that companies gave to people when they sold DRM'ed music files. After all, it's impossible that a company like Microsoft would ever shut down any of its authorisation servers? Remember what happened there? I've been using Eagle for more than a decade. Some folks on this list for twice that. On long timescales none of us, not even anyone at Autodesk, can predict how the CAD and business landscape will change, and priorities shift. I know you're trying to keep things lighthearted, but I'm concerned that with your talk of mountain bases and alien invasions that you don't truly grasp the probabilities and the stakes here. In the longer term there is the potential for Eagle to be replaced with another product, or Autodesk to run into serious difficulty (it can happen to ANY company. Remember Nokia? Yahoo? Autodesk is a small company by comparison). There is also the potential for Eagle to stop supporting a particular platform, and so it becomes impossible activate even a previously released version of Eagle. In the shorter term there are very real risks associated with phone-home licensing. All of the following I have experienced with such schemes in the past: Internet connectivity issues at my end License server downtime System changes my end that cause the license check to fail Now we may all have live with these risks and try to manage them as well as possible. But please understand that these are all real possibilities, with potentially serious consequences. They are not the preserve of people trecking to remote places. Indeed just visiting a factory can be a situation with limited connectivity and incredibly time-sensitive need to access board designs. Matt Berggren wrote on Wed, 18 January 2017 14:26 So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good. You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection. This might seem like a trivial detail but I think it has big consequences. It is important that it be possible to use Eagle in at least read-only mode after installation without pinging Autodesk servers. As I've outlined above, there are plenty of possibilities, both short term temporary issues in the present, and potentially more permanent problems in the future, that may lead to Eagle not being being able to successfully authenticate (or update) after installation (or reinstallation, perhaps due to a software or system problem). Up until now we have had certainty that with a copy of the relevant Eagle installation binary and our license key, no matter what happens, including any temporary problems or bigger changes in the future, we will be able to open any designs we've created. Even if it means one day spinning up a virtual machine with an older OS for compatibility with an old Eagle version. The new scheme removes that confidence. Whilst this whole change is of course unwelcome, I would feel better if you could guarantee that Eagle will be able to fall back to being a reader NO MATTER WHAT, and no matter whether it has ever talked to Autodesk servers. You might feel that we sound like stubborn obsessives. I know that you are dedicated to making Eagle a success, and maybe you feel that you have staked your career on it. But for many of us running small businesses based on our hardware, we really do have our livelihoods tied up in these designs. Eagle might change direction and leave us behind, or you may move on to better things, but we will still need to know with complete certainty that we can access all our work, past and present. Can you help us out here with at least a guaranteed read-only fallback mode? Thanks. ps. Congratulations on the new features, they look great. I'm sorry so much focus is on this less pleasant topic, but it is honestly absolutely critical. -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

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rachaelp Jan 19, 2017 5:11 AM (in response to Joop14) 15. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Joop14 wrote: Not acceptable. The permanent license must work the same way like in older versions. No need to activate again when you replace your computer. What if they pull the plug from the activation server? I'm sorry but I think this is just paranoia. Autodesk are a huge company and have been providing products in other areas for many years. They aren't going to pull the server and they aren't going to go out of business an the foreseeable future I don't think so the risk of not being able to re-activate the permanent license is miniscule. Joop14 wrote: The old license system has been working fine for many years. There's absolutely NO REASON to change that. Anti-piracy motives are a joke. We will see how fast a pirated & patched copy will appear on the internet/torrents. As usual, the need for internet connection will bother legitimate users but will not stop piracy. I don't think it's all about anti piracy, it might be in part, but as you say no matter what you do somebody will manage to circumvent the licensing and pirate versions will become available. I think it's more about being able to offer the monthly subscription, with helps with lowering the bar to getting a paid copy of EAGLE, making it more accessible to more people, plus it evens out the revenue stream a little as rather than a large spike when a new version comes out followed by lower one off purchases, there will be a more constant income from monthly purchasers. That's probably not a significant issue for Autodesk as their revenues are huge across the whole business. I think it's more about making it more accessible. To me there isn't anything sinister about what they have done, I just wish / hope there can be some alterations to make it suit all users a little better. Best Regards, Rachael

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omega-5 Jan 19, 2017 5:18 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 16. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Am 19.01.2017 um 09:19 schrieb Tilmann Reh: Matt Berggren schrieb:

Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription

OK, so EAGLE is dead. At least for me. You might however consider offering two alternative licensing models: one as a subscription, and one for buying. (The latter should work as before: you get a key, you own the software.) Tilmann As a company with a ten user license, we will probably stay at CadSoft Eagle V6.6. The new licensing policy is not acceptable. Friedrich ... use NNTP://news.cadsoft.de and a functional news reader like Thunderbird! ... or http://www.eaglecentral.ca browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.

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Justynb Jan 19, 2017 5:23 AM (in response to Justynb) 17. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

justyn wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 06:05 Can you help us out here with at least a guaranteed read-only fallback mode? Just to clarify my earlier message, I mean a read-only mode that still allows manufacturing data to be generated. -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

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rachaelp Jan 19, 2017 5:28 AM (in response to omega-5) 18. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Friedrich Bleikamp wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 11:17 Am 19.01.2017 um 09:19 schrieb Tilmann Reh: As a company with a ten user license, we will probably stay at CadSoft Eagle V6.6. The new licensing policy is not acceptable. Friedrich That's a good point, there used to be volume discounts didn't there? I've only got the one license so never paid attention to that aspect but yes if I had to buy more seats then that would be a factor to consider. -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

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Justynb Jan 19, 2017 5:33 AM (in response to rachaelp) 19. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

rachaelp wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 06:11 I'm sorry but I think this is just paranoia. Autodesk are a huge company and have been providing products in other areas for many years. They aren't going to pull the server and they aren't going to go out of business an the foreseeable future I don't think so the risk of not being able to re-activate the permanent license is miniscule. I understand, but big companies still go out of business (or effectively do from the perspective of customers). How about Nokia and Blackberry? It didn't take that long for them to go from seeming invincible to being defunct. And they don't need to go out of business, only change their priorities. They might decide that your particular platform isn't worth supporting anymore, and you're in such a minority they'll ignore the fuss. rachaelp wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 06:11 I don't think it's all about anti piracy, it might be in part, but as you say no matter what you do somebody will manage to circumvent the licensing and pirate versions will become available. I think it's more about being able to offer the monthly subscription, with helps with lowering the bar to getting a paid copy of EAGLE, making it more accessible to more people, plus it evens out the revenue stream a little as rather than a large spike when a new version comes out followed by lower one off purchases, there will be a more constant income from monthly purchasers. That's probably not a significant issue for Autodesk as their revenues are huge across the whole business. I think it's more about making it more accessible. To me there isn't anything sinister about what they have done, I just wish / hope there can be some alterations to make it suit all users a little better. Sincerely, if the issue is more about offering the subscription pricing model then it should still be possible for them to in addition offer a permanent, offline license at a premium. -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

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rachaelp Jan 19, 2017 7:54 AM (in response to Justynb) 20. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Justyn B wrote: I understand, but big companies still go out of business (or effectively do from the perspective of customers). How about Nokia and Blackberry? It didn't take that long for them to go from seeming invincible to being defunct. Yes that's a valid point but I think Nokia and Blackberry were in a completely different situation to Autodesk. They got big in the difficult telecoms space during the technology boom in that sector and then failed to react quickly when Apple came along with the iPhone. Also, they sold hardware, the costs and complexity of manufacturing and distribution for selling physical items worldwide and dealing with all the appropriate regulatory requirements is immense. In comparison Autodesk is a large software company selling to a well defined group of people, i.e. those involved requiring CAD. Justyn B wrote: And they don't need to go out of business, only change their priorities. They might decide that your particular platform isn't worth supporting anymore, and you're in such a minority they'll ignore the fuss. That could be covered in the license agreements to ensure they were obliged to maintain the servers for perpetual licensing. These agreements set out their responsibilities to us as well as our responsibilities as users of their software. Justyn B wrote: Sincerely, if the issue is more about offering the subscription pricing model then it should still be possible for them to in addition offer a permanent, offline license at a premium. They should be able to offer a permanent license, I'm not convinced it absolutely needs to be completely offline but that would be the ideal scenario. Unfortunately I think that's unlikely to happen so being pragmatic about it and coming up with solutions that might enable permanent licenses in some form seems a sensible way forward. In general I can see the pace of development in EAGLE has increased rapidly and this is something I am personally very pleased about. It's a shame the v8 release has been overshadowed by issues around licensing but I think that was inevitable. What's important is that we see continued investment and development of new features that make EAGLE both affordable for makers/hobbyists and a powerful tool that engineering professionals can use which isn't so prohibitively expensive that only large corporations can afford to have it. I'm optimistic that EAGLE will get closer to the big three in terms of performance with the investment of Autodesk whilst increasing the affordability at the lower end. Only time will tell I guess but hopefully they will be receptive to feedback from the community to help get them there. Best Regards, Rachael

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 8:18 AM (in response to Joop14) 21. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 19.01.2017 11:58, Joop wrote: The old license system has been working fine for many years. There's absolutely NO REASON to change that. Anti-piracy motives are a joke. We will see how fast a pirated & patched copy will appear on the internet/torrents. As usual, the need for internet connection will bother legitimate users but will not stop piracy. That is 100% my opinion as well.

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Joop14 Jan 19, 2017 8:24 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 22. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

I believe Autodesk will not pump money into Cadsoft for one or two years without getting enough revenue. They will either change back to the old license management system or they will sell Cadsoft (which opens the opportunity for the new owner to change the licensing system as well). So, if most users don't take a subscription, the problem will resolve in the end. In the mean time use V6 or V7. (I already downloaded copies of V6 & V7 for all platforms in case Autodesk gets the brilliant idea to pull the plug of the ftp server) -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

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Ed Robledo Jan 19, 2017 8:38 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 23. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Glen, At this time the Sales team is offering an aggressive incentive for existing users. Please contact [email protected], she will be able to inform you of the incentive program being made available. Best Regards, Ed [email protected] Support On 01/19/2017 02:08 AM, Glenn Jones wrote: Hi Matt, so to be clear with V8 we are obtaining a new copy of the software based on subscription that has nothing to do with the previous versions we paid for or where those were installed and used as I don't see the words upgrade used anywhere. I am a licensee of Unity3D. They too have gone the subscription route. They offered existing PRO customers a 50% reduction in their yearly subscription cost with an option to renew at that same price for a second year. Will Autodesk be offering any incentives to keep their existing customers? Glenn On 1/18/2017 2:26 PM, Matt Berggren wrote:

Hi All - Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether. Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback: Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement. Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected. If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days. I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it). The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money. WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example. Point it, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us at all to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business. As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all. We know this. We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories. To demonstrate this behavior in one category, without a path for user SW and data, calls into question ALL of our tools' viability under this model. Not helpful. Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data". Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine. And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data. If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion. Again, not helpful. (Read: strategy = doomed). +"So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a paid version) and reading it? What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?"+ So here's the deal...We can do better here. So we will. +Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on+ *without need of internet connection* except when you first install it (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place): *in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req. * So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good. You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection. Caveat: to install an update, you will need to login. The update server (which issues the new version...e.g. 8.1 or 8.2. or 8.0.1, etc.) requires that you login and get the update, but beyond that, logout. Thus if you want to go off-grid in a mountain cabin somewhere, get your license at Starbucks (blagh! I understand they have 'free' wifi, but no frappucinos! ...that stuff is bad for you) then get your license and go on your merry way up to the snow drenched peaks. When you hear from the other mountaineers or your local yodeler that a new version of EAGLE is available...download, login, get your license, get your 'decaf double-pump vanilla non-fat latte macchiato' and head back up the slopes. Point being, we can do the freeware better. So we will. Hope this is clear. Let us know if you have questions! Best regards, Matt Berggren Director - Autodesk @technolomaniac hackaday.io/matt -To view any images and attachments in this post, visit: https://www.element14.com/community/message/213345



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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 8:38 AM (in response to rachaelp) 24. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 19.01.2017 12:11, rachaelp wrote: I don't think it's all about anti piracy, it might be in part, but as you say no matter what you do somebody will manage to circumvent the licensing and pirate versions will become available. I think it's more about being able to offer the monthly subscription, with helps with lowering the bar to getting a paid copy of EAGLE, making it more accessible to more people, plus it evens out the revenue stream a little as rather than a large spike when a new version comes out followed by lower one off purchases, there will be a more constant income from monthly purchasers. That's probably not a significant issue for Autodesk as their revenues are huge across the whole business. I think it's more about making it more accessible. To me there isn't anything sinister about what they have done, I just wish / hope there can be some alterations to make it suit all users a little better. It can be implemented both. Installer asks for licensekey/installcode, if it gets one, everything works as before. If not, work as Viewer with a login option to activate the subscribable features. I don't see why this should not be possible to combine both worlds. Markus

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 8:43 AM (in response to rachaelp) 25. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 19.01.2017 14:54, rachaelp wrote: Yes that's a valid point but I think Nokia and Blackberry were in a completely different situation to Autodesk. That doesn't matter. Fact is: it could happen. The remote possibility is enough. Markus

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Ed Robledo Jan 19, 2017 8:48 AM (in response to omega-5) 26. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Friedrich, At this time subscription volume licensing is not being offered for EAGLE but this doesn't mean it will be implemented in the future. We have been able to experienced volume license from other Autodesk products, they are quite simple to use and manage. If you are interested on upgrading, please contact [email protected] to provide you upgrade pricing options. Best Regards, Ed [email protected] On 01/19/2017 06:17 AM, Friedrich Bleikamp wrote: Am 19.01.2017 um 09:19 schrieb Tilmann Reh:

Matt Berggren schrieb:

Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription

OK, so EAGLE is dead. At least for me. You might however consider offering two alternative licensing models: one as a subscription, and one for buying. (The latter should work as before: you get a key, you own the software.) Tilmann

As a company with a ten user license, we will probably stay at CadSoft Eagle V6.6. The new licensing policy is not acceptable. Friedrich ----------------------------------------------... use NNTP://news.cadsoft.de and a functional news reader like Thunderbird! ... or http://www.eaglecentral.ca browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.

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rachaelp Jan 19, 2017 8:58 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 27. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Markus Rudolf wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 14:38 It can be implemented both. Installer asks for licensekey/installcode, if it gets one, everything works as before. If not, work as Viewer with a login option to activate the subscribable features. I don't see why this should not be possible to combine both worlds. Markus It's definitely possible, but whether they will entertain having two separate licensing systems within the software is another thing entirely. It might lead to unforeseen issues. -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

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rachaelp Jan 19, 2017 8:59 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 28. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Markus Rudolf wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 14:40 On 19.01.2017 14:54, rachaelp wrote:

Yes that's a valid point but I think Nokia and Blackberry were in a completely different situation to Autodesk.

That doesn't matter. Fact is: it could happen. The remote possibility is enough. Markus Lots of bad things could happen in life, some with very small probability. If we worried about every single remote possibility of something going wrong we would have very restrictive lives with all the precautions we'd be having to take to avoid every remote possibility of danger. Life is too short to worry about this sort of thing too much. -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 9:09 AM (in response to rachaelp) 29. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Rachael schrieb: It's definitely possible, but whether they will entertain having two separate licensing systems within the software is another thing entirely. It might lead to unforeseen issues. Not supporting that might also lead to issues - foreseen, however: many people won't subscribe and move on to other software. It doesn't make any sense to try to force users into a subscription model if they don't want that. In fact, I would rather switch to a completely different CAD than "upgrade" to a subscription license. It's all that easy: if there are no permanent offline licenses any more, many will leave - or simply continue to use their existing licenses. It's up to Autodesk to judge if that counts for them (and/or if eventually new customers who subscribe are able to compensate for that). Tilmann

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Ed Robledo Jan 19, 2017 9:13 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 30. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 01/19/2017 09:18 AM, Markus Rudolf wrote: On 19.01.2017 11:58, Joop wrote:

The old license system has been working fine for many years. There's absolutely NO REASON to change that. Anti-piracy motives are a joke. We will see how fast a pirated & patched copy will appear on the internet/torrents. As usual, the need for internet connection will bother legitimate users but will not stop piracy.

That is 100% my opinion as well. Hi Markus, With my limited exposure to the transition to Autodesk, piracy was not really a factor considered for implementing a subscription model into EAGLE. As stated earlier, it was about making the product assessable, flexible and affordable. Best Regards, Ed [email protected]

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dukepro Jan 19, 2017 9:13 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 31. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 01/18/2017 02:26 PM, Matt Berggren wrote: Hi All - Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether. Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback: Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement. Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected. If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days. I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it). The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money. I can see that you're pretty much laughing off our concerns. The only example you could present where this subscription based license will save the customer money is for a part time Eagle user. Look at it this way... In the last 4-1/2 years, I spent about $1000 to upgrade a 3-user Professional license from v5 to v6, and to v7. Based on the current pricing of $500 per user per year, the equivalent 3-user Ultimate license will now cost $6,750 for 4-1/2 years. Matt, help me to understand how the total cost of ownership is now lower than what it was? WRT to "what happens if autodesk decides to one day just shut off the license server?" ...ok, sure, that's possible, but so is a reality TV star becoming President of the..cough...nevermind, bad example. Point it, that's a pretty remote possibility (think: time travel and alien invasions) and it wouldn't benefit us at all to upset the users we just spent real money hoping to bring into autodesk and earn their business. Again, I fail to see the humor. It's not so much about shutting down a license server - it's more about the ability to access it. Several customers, including myself, have already expressed concerns about this. A scenario that is far more likely to occur would be one that is out of Autodesk's control - something like a virus that renders getting packets to and from Autodesk impossible. As the guy with both development and P&L for the product, I can tell you that it's counterintuitive and wouldn't benefit us at all. We know this. We make SW used by governments, movie studios, game developers, MEs, Civil Engineers, machinists, etc. and you can bet that shutting down a license server is not to our benefit in any of these categories. Yes, and you now make software that can not be used in a secure or remote environment. Yeah... I also read about Global Travel Rights. Now...a question was raised about "but what if I drop my subscription and I want my data". Awesome, the data is yours and lives on your machine. And for SW that stores data in the cloud (we have some of these) we always provide a path to your data. If this again fails with one product, it puts all of the others up for discussion. Again, not helpful. (Read: strategy = doomed). Is it safe to assume that when you say that the license server and data in the cloud will always be available, it means that your servers are fully secured and unhackable and will never go down. We're more likely to face an alien invasion than to have such servers. "So what about needing an entitlement for the freeware to open the data I created in another version (a paid version) and reading it? What if I want access and I dont want the 14-day time out?" So here's the deal...We can do better here. So we will. Here's my commitment to the group here for freeware that ensures you always have a license that you can fall back on without need of internet connection except when you first install it (which after all, you would have had to get it in the first place): *in version 8.1 or 8.0.1 or whathaveyou (let's call it 'a future release'), if you install the SW and authenticate once, we'll remove the timer req. * So what I'm saying another way is, the freeware will require you to login the first time to get your license, but if you log out beyond that, you're good. You got your entitlement and you can use it freely without connection. If you can remove the timer requirement for the freeware, then you can also set the timer to a period longer than 14 days, per Rachel's suggestion. Hope this is clear. Let us know if you have questions! I sincerely hope that Autodesk will lend a serious ear to and address the concerns expressed about subscription based licensing. However, I truly believe that this is a lost cause considering that Autodesk's business model is subscription based. Thanks for your help, - Chuck

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 9:33 AM (in response to Ed Robledo) 32. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 19.01.2017 16:11, Ed wrote: Hi Markus, With my limited exposure to the transition to Autodesk, piracy was not really a factor considered for implementing a subscription model into EAGLE. As stated earlier, it was about making the product assessable, flexible and affordable. Best Regards, Ed [email protected] The emphasis was more on the >>> The old license system has been working fine for many years. There's >>> absolutely NO REASON >>> to change that. part....

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danteo Jan 19, 2017 9:33 AM (in response to dukepro) 33. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I can see all those new licensing modes for new product. But it's not this case. The new Eagle is forked from the old Eagle. The old Eagle had licensed users. The new Eagle wants old Eagle's user pool to pay "again"? Or am I misunderstanding the whole thing?

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shabaz Jan 19, 2017 9:34 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 34. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Matt, When will the EAGLE Maker version (or another solution for hobbiests) be v8-ready? I see the subscription for 'EAGLE Standard' and 'EAGLE Premium' are now available on the website, but not EAGLE Maker. As mentioned in an earlier thread I'm not averse to the subscription model for the Maker version provided it works out cheaper than purchasing/upgrading releases without skipping them, The free version is something that doesn't work for me, since I need 4-layers (and 6 currently), for not-profit purposes. Many hobbyist needs require 4-layer, and it was nice that you guys leap-frogged the competition to offer 6-layer (which I and others will need more and more today and in the future). Many thanks, Shabaz.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 9:34 AM (in response to danteo) 35. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 19.01.2017 16:32, Dan Teodorescu wrote: The new Eagle wants that old Eagle's user pool to pay "again"? No they want a constant cash flow. "Pay" would imply you own the software afterwards, they want to rent it to you.

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technolomaniac Jan 19, 2017 9:53 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 36. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Matt, so to be clear with V8 we are obtaining a new copy of the software based on subscription that has nothing to do with the previous versions we paid for or where those were installed and used as I don't see the words upgrade used anywhere. I am a licensee of Unity3D. They too have gone the subscription route. They offered existing PRO customers a 50% reduction in their yearly subscription cost with an option to renew at that same price for a second year. Will Autodesk be offering any incentives to keep their existing customers? Glenn Hi Glenn - We're working out the details of that for v7 customers. More to come on that here shortly! Best regards, Matt

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Ed Robledo Jan 19, 2017 9:58 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 37. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 01/19/2017 10:30 AM, Markus Rudolf wrote: On 19.01.2017 16:11, Ed wrote:

Hi Markus, With my limited exposure to the transition to Autodesk, piracy was not really a factor considered for implementing a subscription model into EAGLE. As stated earlier, it was about making the product assessable, flexible and affordable. Best Regards, Ed [email protected]

The emphasis was more on the

The old license system has been working fine for many years. There's absolutely NO REASON to change that.

part.... Hi Markus, I have been blessed to be part of the EAGLE support team for a very long time. I am confident to state that we would get anywhere between 20 to 40 request of existing users asking to get access to their license because they have misplaced their key or no longer have their installation code. Every time we had an update, the request might reach hundreds every day. Many voiced frustration because they intended to work during the weekend but couldn't validate their registration. This new model now gives the user access to their software without requiring pairing up a file and installation code. Best Regards, Ed [email protected]

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technolomaniac Jan 19, 2017 9:56 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 38. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

No they want a constant cash flow. "Pay" would imply you own the software afterwards, they want to rent it to you. The major difference being that if you dont like what we release in a subsequent point-release (8.1, 8.2, 8.3...) you have not paid for everything up front, hoping one day they add better routing or better hierarchy, or better connectivity tools or design rules, etc. and then beeb disappointed that you "bet" it would come in version x.y only to find that it didnt.

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bvwj Jan 19, 2017 10:01 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 39. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Dead to me also. Fortunately KiCAD appears ready for real work.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 10:24 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 40. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 19:26:46 GMT, Matt Berggren < [email protected]> wrote: Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement. Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected. If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days. I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it). The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money. So Eagle is going to the subscription model. Didn't you learn anything from the previous licensing fiasco? You can count me and my company out. I will not rent any software, especially not business critical software like this. Does anyone happen know a good KiCad tutorial aimed for Eagle users?

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sauerwald Jan 19, 2017 10:27 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 41. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Matt I purchased the full commercial licence for Eagle last month. My understanding is that if I want to upgrade, I need to convert to the subscription model, and I have essentially lost the investment that I made in purchasing a license. Mark Sauerwald

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e14candies Jan 19, 2017 10:38 AM (in response to sauerwald) 42. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

from a few posts not too long ago.... Autodesk acquires 'EAGLE': Official Q&A Discussion, New Website & What This Means! jwatson Employee Jul 20, 2016 10:57 OFFICIAL NEWS from Matt Berggren, Director Autodesk Circuits / Tinkercad / 123D and now...EAGLE! Hello EAGLE users one and all! Will there still be a free version? Absolutely yes. We have no plans to eliminate the free tier at all. This is central to EAGLE's success and aligns with how Autodesk does business today. We'll continue this license to ensure everyone has access to powerful, easy to use schematic and PCB software. How does this affect upgrades? Upgrades work as they had in the past, for the most part. If you want to upgrade from v6 Layout + Schematic to v7 Layout + Schematic, then you pay 33% of the license price. Simple. If you want to upgrade from v6 Layout + Schematic to v7 Layout + Schematic + Autorouter, then you first pay the upgrade cost of 33% to v7 Layout + Schematic and finally, you pay the difference in cost between the two v7 license types. Same as before. What's different? For a limited time, we've reduced the price to upgrade legacy v5 licenses of EAGLE from 66% to 33% of the license price. So if you've got a version 5 license, rather than paying 66% of the new license cost to upgrade, do it now for only 33%! Will I be required to pay 'maintenance'? Simply put, no. You should see some improvements in the pricing starting next week. The site has given some incorrect prices as of late so we should these issues addressed very soon. I'd say check the pricing next week, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 10:48 AM (in response to Ed Robledo) 43. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 19.01.2017 16:55, Ed wrote: Hi Markus, I have been blessed to be part of the EAGLE support team for a very long time. I am confident to state that we would get anywhere between 20 to 40 request of existing users asking to get access to their license because they have misplaced their key or no longer have their installation code. Every time we had an update, the request might reach hundreds every day. Many voiced frustration because they intended to work during the weekend but couldn't validate their registration. Yeah well you can charge them fees for looking up their code if they messed it up. Would be fair enough. Nice extra revenue I never lost any code in the last 15 years and don't plan to do so.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 10:53 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 44. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Matt Berggren schrieb: No they want a constant cash flow. "Pay" would imply you own the software afterwards, they want to rent it to you.

The major difference being that if you dont like what we release in a subsequent point-release (8.1, 8.2, 8.3...) you have not paid for everything up front, hoping one day they add better routing or better hierarchy, or better connectivity tools or design rules, etc. and then beeb disappointed that you "bet" it would come in version x.y only to find that it didnt. Now you are completely inverting the facts. With a paid license, you get exactly what you pay for. You might even check out the freeware before to see if any new functions or changes justify the expenses. If you want to further use the old version (without additional cost, BTW), you simply don't update. With a subscription, you continuously pay even without any update (if it's really possible to avoid updates without losing the activation). Then you are disappointed! Tilmann

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 10:54 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 45. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 19.01.2017 16:56, Matt Berggren wrote: The major difference being that if you dont like what we release in a subsequent point-release (8.1, 8.2, 8.3...) you have not paid for everything up front, hoping one day they add better routing or better hierarchy, or better connectivity tools or design rules, etc. and then beeb disappointed that you "bet" it would come in version x.y only to find that it didnt. In the previous model you at least had the option on staying disappointed because if you decide to not put in any more money in the slot machine, you still had a full functional version which you could reinstall whenever needed without any hazzle. Markus

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 10:58 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 46. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Markus Rudolf wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 16:48 On 19.01.2017 16:55, Ed wrote:

Hi Markus, I have been blessed to be part of the EAGLE support team for a very long time. I am confident to state that we would get anywhere between 20 to 40 request of existing users asking to get access to their license because they have misplaced their key or no longer have their installation code. Every time we had an update, the request might reach hundreds every day. Many voiced frustration because they intended to work during the weekend but couldn't validate their registration.

Yeah well you can charge them fees for looking up their code if they messed it up. Would be fair enough. Nice extra revenue I never lost any code in the last 15 years and don't plan to do so. Nor have I as a user. As a distributor I started a policy about 2 years ago to charge $25 to replace lost licenses, it was very clear in the email sent out with license info. After that, no one complained and I only had one customer who needed to use it--and he apologized for the extra work he caused us. Cheers, James. -James Morrison ~~~ Stratford Digital http://www.stratforddigital.ca -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

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Justynb Jan 19, 2017 11:03 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 47. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Markus Rudolf wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 11:48 On 19.01.2017 16:55, Ed wrote:

Hi Markus, I have been blessed to be part of the EAGLE support team for a very long time. I am confident to state that we would get anywhere between 20 to 40 request of existing users asking to get access to their license because they have misplaced their key or no longer have their installation code. Every time we had an update, the request might reach hundreds every day. Many voiced frustration because they intended to work during the weekend but couldn't validate their registration.

Yeah well you can charge them fees for looking up their code if they messed it up. Would be fair enough. Nice extra revenue I never lost any code in the last 15 years and don't plan to do so. Alternatively since every purchaser from now on is inevitably going to need an Autodesk account, just a link to download their key from their account page on the site. Then it is up to them whether they keep it safe or not. Sounds like a pretty simple solution to me. -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 11:08 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 48. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

So Eagle is going to the subscription model. Didn't you learn anything from the previous licensing fiasco? You can count me and my company out. I will not rent any software, especially not business critical software like this. Does anyone happen know a good KiCad tutorial aimed for Eagle users? Hi Jussi, I find it interesting the mention of KiCAD and business critical in the same post. With an open source tool like KiCAD you are accepting the software as is, there is no promise of prompt support or any professional assistance should you run into problems. You also have no expectation of feature implementations or a constant development cycle. I'm not knocking it's capabilities, simply the fact that using it entails risk just like any other program. If I had a business, I don't think I would be comfortable with that. I would want to know that if I have a question or problem there is someone I can reach out to and get a quick response. I would encourage everyone who sees subscription and says "I'm out" to give it a try and then form an opinion, right now most of these posts just seem to be reactionary. Hope this helps, Jorge Garcia

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 11:13 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 49. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 19.01.2017 18:06, Jorge Garcia wrote: I find it interesting the mention of KiCAD and business critical in the same post. If CERN uses it, i'd tend to say it's most likely good enough.

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sauerwald Jan 19, 2017 11:18 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 50. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Jorge I would agree with you that for business use, there is value in having a professional support team who continue to update the software and provide technical support. This is why I paid the fee to upgrade my Eagle license to a full, commercial license less than a month ago. I would be willing to pay a fee for support, and I am happy to pay for upgrades, but not for use of the software, this is why I paid to purchase the full commercial license for Eagle last month. When you tie the use of my designs to paying a fee to access them, you raise a barrier that I am not willing to cross. I will be looking at continuing to use Eagle version 7, until I am forced to move to another CAD environment in which I will have perpetual, free access to my designs. Mark

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e14candies Jan 19, 2017 11:28 AM (in response to sauerwald) 51. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

old scenario: a) Invest $1500 (or thereabout) full version, no license expiration b) minor upgrade available with a few few features you don't care about...pay $500 upgrade, or stay put..you decide..maybe wait a year or two c)major update avail, you want it. If didn't do b, now pay more to upgrade, maybe $750....if you don't want...stick with "a" as long as you are happy. new scenario: a)purchase yearly subscription 3 years @ $500/year, same as "a" above, ok b)during 3 years some small & some big improvements made...you automatically get them, good investment c)or during 3 years not too much improvement...still "ok" investment During 3 years subscription price certainly goes up and up and up d)3 years later your subscription expired, now $1200/year....decide too expensive and don't want. But wait, now your Eagle version is completely unusable, locked out forever ....no more projects for you! In 6 months, went from "no maintenence fee" to now $500/year..to what in 3 years from now? You also have no expectation of feature implementations or a constant development cycle. I'm not knocking it's capabilities, simply the fact that using it entails risk just like any other program. If I had a business, I don't think I would be comfortable with that. I would want to know that if I have a question or problem there is someone I can reach out to and get a quick response. constant development cycle...that is somewhat laughable...feature and improvements were requested for years then more years, with little or no action taken on many of them. Perhaps this is now changed. Is there an actual complete list of what has been implemented? Is there a roadmap? -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 11:29 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 52. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Am 19.01.2017 um 18:06 schrieb Jorge Garcia: With an open source tool like KiCAD you are accepting the software as is, there is no promise of prompt support or any professional assistance should you run into problems. You also have no expectation of feature implementations or a constant development cycle. I'm not knocking it's capabilities, simply the fact that using it entails risk just like any other program. If I had a business, I don't think I would be comfortable with that. I What software serves autodesk.com? Isn't that open source software a bit risky? If I had a business, I don't think I would be comfortable with that.

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s.j.dickinson Jan 19, 2017 11:34 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 53. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I totally agree. I have previously come seriously unstuck over software with complicated licensing arrangements. I ended up unable to read or edit my own data so I have learned my lesson. I have used Eagle for many years and liked it a lot. I have invested many hours implementing component libs, UserLanguagePrograms and scripts and also separate application programs to handle BOM data, however I find the imposed new licensing arrangements unacceptable. As Jussi has pointed out KiCad now appears to have reached the point where it is a viable alternative - so with the knowledge that I will be loosing my invested time, I think the time has now come to move on from Eagle. Stephen Dickinson Organised Technology Ltd 7-4-6 Cameron House White Cross Industrial Estate Lancaster Lancashire LA1 4XF Phone +44 (0)1524 849933 WEB: www.orgtec.co.uk Information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender immediately by returning this email and delete this message from your system. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this information without our prior consent is strictly prohibited. Phone calls may be recorded. Registered in England and Wales - company number 3521877. VAT registration number 866340707. On 19/01/2017 16:24, Jussi Ilvonen wrote: On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 19:26:46 GMT, Matt Berggren < [email protected]> wrote:

Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription and the EAGLE paid license will require that you install the SW and then generate an account to retrieve your license entitlement. Once you have this, you are good to go and the SW will run as expected. If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days. I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it). The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money.

So Eagle is going to the subscription model. Didn't you learn anything from the previous licensing fiasco? You can count me and my company out. I will not rent any software, especially not business critical software like this. Does anyone happen know a good KiCad tutorial aimed for Eagle users?

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 11:48 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 54. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

So you dislike open source like Qt5 which is the frameworks upon which Eagle is built? Qt commercial gets you support and the license to develop closed source applications, but Qt5 is still open source. There a many open source applications that provide support. Eric On 01/19/2017 12:06 PM, Jorge Garcia wrote: With an open source tool like KiCAD you are accepting the software as is, there is no promise of prompt support or any professional assistance should you run into problems.

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Justynb Jan 19, 2017 11:48 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 55. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Jorge Garcia wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 12:06 With an open source tool like KiCAD you are accepting the software as is, there is no promise of prompt support or any professional assistance should you run intoproblems. You also have no expectation of feature implementations or a constant development cycle. I'm not knocking it's capabilities, simply the fact that using it entails risk just like any other program. If I had a business, I don't think I would be comfortable with that. I would want to know that if I have a question or problem there is someone I can reach out to and get a quick response. Like many others I use plenty of open source software in business-critical situations and I find it very reliable. Sometimes communities can respond just as quickly as company support. But as you say, there are often tradeoffs. If people want an absolute guarantee that a company will not take a product in a direction they don't like, open source is the only option. But they may have to fund development of features or fixes themselves. KiCad (and gEDA) will be a good fit for many people. Anyway, this really feels like it is getting off topic. Jorge Garcia wrote on Thu, 19 January 2017 12:06 I would encourage everyone who sees subscription and says "I'm out" to give it a try and then form an opinion, right now most of these posts just seem to be reactionary. I'd like to be quite clear here that I personally don't have a problem with the subscription model itself. I'm happy to pay monthly, or a lump sum, or whatever. I don't care, this is critical software for my business. I understand that others disagree. My main concern (and I'm sure I'm not alone) is of not being able to use the software in the event of lack of connection to the license servers if I am not successfully signed in. This does include in the long term (you don't know the license servers will still be running in 15 years). But more obviously it also includes the short term: The servers might go down, there might be a big DDoS attach, whatever I might not have access to the internet, might be at a factory, on a glacier, my ISP might be suffering an outage "Wait!" you say, "Just make sure you've used Eagle online beforehand, and everything is fine!" But that is not always the way things work. It might be unplanned. A system update on your computer might cause the license check to crap out, or you might have to reinstall Eagle, whatever. And of course this doesn't cover the problem of using the file in the future when Autodesk isn't running the servers (or not supporting them for your platform). It could be very serious not to be able to use Eagle properly in these situations. But there we go, perhaps we have to accept it. I'm genuinely trying to find middle ground here. I would at least like to know that I will be able to open the files, inspect, create manufacturing data etc. So to Matt and Jorge, please could you tell me that an Eagle fallback mode will allow limited functionality (ie read-only) even if it has never registered with an Autodesk server. Eagle has always been able to open all compatible files in read-only mode without any license file at all. If you would please just preserve this true offline fallback to read-only, I will reluctantly stomach the rest of it and subscribe to Premium right away. Please consider this. Thanks. ps sorry for all the bold. And sorry to the many others for whom even this compromise would be unacceptable. -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

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sauerwald Jan 19, 2017 11:50 AM (in response to s.j.dickinson) 56. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Designing a product with rented software is like building a house on leased land. There are plenty of people who do it, but I'm not one of them.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 11:53 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 57. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 12:06:25 -0500, Jorge Garcia < [email protected]> wrote:

So Eagle is going to the subscription model. Didn't you learn anything from the previous licensing fiasco? You can count me and my company out. I will not rent any software, especially not business critical software like this. Does anyone happen know a good KiCad tutorial aimed for Eagle users?

Hi Jussi, I find it interesting the mention of KiCAD and business critical in the same post. Well, electronics CAD is pretty business critical for me and my company and as far as I know only options with Linux and preferably Windows support are Eagle and KiCad. With an open source tool like KiCAD you are accepting the software as is, there is no promise of prompt support or any professional assistance should you run into problems. You also have no expectation of feature This is certainly true. As I see it this does not really differ from what the Eagle offers: there is no guarantee that the prompt support or professional assistance actually helps... implementations or a constant development cycle. I'm not knocking it's capabilities, simply the fact that using it entails risk just like any other program. Open Source development is usually considerable more transparent than that of proprietary software. If there is a feature missing in an open source software I can always implement such features myself or pay someone to do the work in my behalf. I have no such recourse with proprietary software. If I had a business, I don't think I would be comfortable with that. I would want to know that if I have a question or problem there is someone I can reach out to and get a quick response. What little contact I have had with Cadsoft support I can say that the email support has not that useful. So I don't think I am any worse off with having to relay on community support. I would encourage everyone who sees subscription and says "I'm out" to give it a try and then form an opinion, right now most of these posts just seem to be reactionary. I fully admit that I have an extreme visceral reaction to rented software, and I don't think that any arguments to the contrary (rational or not) are going to change that ;( Best Regards Jussi

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 12:08 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 58. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 1/19/2017 12:47 PM, Eric Stevens wrote: So you dislike open source like Qt5 which is the frameworks upon which Eagle is built? Qt commercial gets you support and the license to develop closed source applications, but Qt5 is still open source. There a many open source applications that provide support. Hi Eric, Let me make it very clear, I love open source. I work on a Linux Mint box on a daily basis and I work with open source tools all the time. My point was that like everything, open source has its weaknesses and trade offs anyone who says otherwise is not being reasonable. Large open source projects have very active communities, producing high quality software. Linux, Qt, and Internet infrastructure are all very large open source projects. The same can not be said of smaller open source projects with more modest resources. My discussion was about KiCAD, please don't try to misconstrue my comments as an attack on all of open source. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 12:13 PM (in response to sauerwald) 59. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 1/19/2017 12:50 PM, Mark Sauerwald wrote: Designing a product with rented software is like building a house on leased land. There are plenty of people who do it, but I'm not one of them. -To view any images and attachments in this post, visit: https://www.element14.com/community/message/213475 Hi Mark, If you think about it, everyone builds houses on leased land. You may purchase a property and build on it, but what happens if you don't pay your property taxes? The government can still take your home and your land, so do you really own it? I think there are many situations where the concept of ownership is illusory. In the grand scheme of things, how much do we really own? Something to think about, I guess. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 12:23 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 60. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 19.01.2017 18:06, Jorge Garcia wrote: > With an open source tool like KiCAD you are accepting the software as > is, there is no promise of prompt support or any professional assistance > should you run into problems. You also have no expectation of feature Where's the problem? Our department has been relying on open-source tools for a very long time now. With an open-source tool, I can fix bugs myself and support is done via newsgroups or mailing lists. Of course, there are tools where a build environment is difficult to set up, but from what I've seen, KiCad should be reasonably easy. It's even built with my prefered UI toolkit. For mission-critical and long-running tasks, I always prefer open source over proprietary stuff. Actually, Eagle is competing more with KiCad than e.g. with Altium. The licensing does not match this any more. The prices increased quite a lot in the past when there was no competition in the lower cost region. Now, that there is competition, the prices increased even more. That's quite against the mechanisms of a market. In the past, Cadsoft missed to deliver updates with the features and UI improvements that people wanted and so people did not upgrade. Obviously, that's a difficult business model. Now Autodesk wants to people to rent the software based on the promise that everything will be better? I would suggest to go back to the old license model again for two or three releases to demonstrate that things really get better. Of course the new license model has a big advantage: Whenever someone upgrades to the new model, someone else can buy a cheap "used" license. Regards, Dietmar

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 12:23 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 61. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 19.01.2017 17:24, Jussi Ilvonen wrote: Does anyone happen know a good KiCad tutorial aimed for Eagle users? I think that the migration is still non-trivial when you want to take over schematics and libraries. If you plan to migrate, it's probably better to stay away from Eagle 8 and it's modular design blocks. Such data structures make things more complicated than flat ones. My plan was to stay with Eagle 6.6 for one or two more years and then move to KiCad. Hopefully by then, better migration tools will be available. Regards, Dietmar

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 12:33 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 62. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Jorge, No problem, I understand that there are a lot (most) of open source projects where dedicated support is non-existent, but it was the way it was phrased. "With an open source tool like ..." came off a bit volatile to me. If you had said "With a tool like ..." it would have been less likely to ruffle my feathers, at least. I also have to work with some CAD software, not from Autodesk btw, that we pay insane amounts of money for support and I'd be better off asking my dog for solutions. So there's that. Stay cool, Eric Hi Eric, Let me make it very clear, I love open source. I work on a Linux Mint box on a daily basis and I work with open source tools all the time. My point was that like everything, open source has its weaknesses and trade offs anyone who says otherwise is not being reasonable. Large open source projects have very active communities, producing high quality software. Linux, Qt, and Internet infrastructure are all very large open source projects. The same can not be said of smaller open source projects with more modest resources. My discussion was about KiCAD, please don't try to misconstrue my comments as an attack on all of open source. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia

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e14candies Jan 19, 2017 12:43 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 63. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

This was non-functional yesterday & is still non-functional today.... Autodesk Knowledge Network Due to system issues, our Chat option for Contacting Support may not be available. We apologize for the inconvenience and are currently working to resolve the issue as quickly as possible. Please use an alternative method to contact support until this issue is resolved. https://knowledge.autodesk.com/customer-service/download-install -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 1:18 PM (in response to e14candies) 64. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 1/19/2017 1:40 PM, Hoyt wrote: This was non-functional yesterday & is still non-functional today.... Autodesk Knowledge Network Due to system issues, our Chat option for Contacting Support may not be available. We apologize for the inconvenience and are currently working to resolve the issue as quickly as possible. Please use an alternative method to contact support until this issue is resolved. https://knowledge.autodesk.com/customer-service/download-install Hi Hoyt, This is where things can sometimes be challenging, there are 20 ways to reach support through Autodesk.The AKN is not the best one is you want to reach us. The official recommended approach is to login to your Autodesk account and on the top right there's a support button click it and go to view my cases and create a case there. That's probably the best way for now although other options will be coming soon. If you have our old phone number that still works so you can reach us directly. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 1:23 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 65. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 19/01/17 18:32, Eric Stevens wrote: I also have to work with some CAD software, not from Autodesk btw, that we pay insane amounts of money for support and I'd be better off asking my dog for solutions. So there's that. To be honest, EVERY time I've had to use the so-called support provided by a commercial software house, I'd have been better off asking the dog. In contrast, the open source community are very open and helpful.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 1:29 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 66. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

To be honest, EVERY time I've had to use the so-called support provided by a commercial software house, I'd have been better off asking the dog. In contrast, the open source community are very open and helpful. Hi Rob, Well, how have I been? Honestly, I can take it. I'm still going to be active on our forums and worst case you can always call. It just kinda hurts to be compared to a dog, but I guess that's how it rolls. P.S I'm mostly joking about feeling bad The support team is still going to be the same if that's any consolation and you'll still be able to reach us. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 1:33 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 67. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Jorge Garcia wrote: On 1/19/2017 12:47 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:

So you dislike open source like Qt5 which is the frameworks upon which Eagle is built? Qt commercial gets you support and the license to develop closed source applications, but Qt5 is still open source. There a many open source applications that provide support.

Hi Eric, Let me make it very clear, I love open source. I work on a Linux Mint box on a daily basis and I work with open source tools all the time. My point was that like everything, open source has its weaknesses and trade offs anyone who says otherwise is not being reasonable. Large open source projects have very active communities, producing high quality software. Linux, Qt, and Internet infrastructure are all very large open source projects. The same can not be said of smaller open source projects with more modest resources. My discussion was about KiCAD, please don't try to misconstrue my comments as an attack on all of open source. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia On a related note, I've been a licensed user of Eagle on my Gentoo Linux workstation (actually multiple Linux workstations over the years) since my first purchase of Eagle V3 for $613.50 on August 17, 1999. (Yes, I keep financial records forever it seems.) I've bought every professional upgrade since then, and gone multi-user the last few years. I've done dozens and dozens of boards with Eagle and can count the number of times it has crashed on me on the fingers of one hand in all that time. Kudos to the Eagle team. My workstations have been just as reliable, which is a far cry from earlier days running Windows. I can not, and will not, ever return to a Windows OS. I run other proprietary applications under Gentoo as well, including VariCAD 3D for mechanical modeling. I greet the news of Autodesk's purchase of Cadsoft with a lot of trepidation. First, I am no fan of subscription licensing models, for all the good reasons already mentioned by others in this thread. Putting that aside for the moment, I am just as concerned with Autodesk's track record of support for Unix-based OS's (which both Linux and MacOS are obvious examples of), or more precisely, lack of same. I believe it was R14, for example, when Autodesk unceremoniously dumped AutoCAD users on Unix off the proverbial cliff. What reassurances can you give us that Autodesk won't do the same soon for those of us running Eagle on Linux and Mac workstations at some time down the road? What are the chances that V9 will be released next year, but "Sorry, due to low demand we've dropped support for Linux and Mac. However, please accept our offer of a reduced-price subscription to Windows11 Virus Edition, good for the next 30 days." I can guarantee that Autodesk's past actions are going to factor heavily into my company's decision to upgrade or not moving forward, and I would appreciate Autodesk offering the same OS support assurances as they seem to be offering currently regarding the longevity of their license servers. Sincerely, Bob Johnson

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e14candies Jan 19, 2017 1:48 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 68. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Well, how have I been? Honestly, I can take it. I'm still going to be active on our forums and worst case you can always call. Jorge: For many years your help has been great, appreciated & continues to be the best! Top-notch & quick & probably partly why so many dedicated users have stuck with Eagle through the several "transitions". -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 1:53 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 69. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I greet the news of Autodesk's purchase of Cadsoft with a lot of trepidation. First, I am no fan of subscription licensing models, for all the good reasons already mentioned by others in this thread. Putting that aside for the moment, I am just as concerned with Autodesk's track record of support for Unix-based OS's (which both Linux and MacOS are obvious examples of), or more precisely, lack of same. I believe it was R14, for example, when Autodesk unceremoniously dumped AutoCAD users on Unix off the proverbial cliff. What reassurances can you give us that Autodesk won't do the same soon for those of us running Eagle on Linux and Mac workstations at some time down the road? What are the chances that V9 will be released next year, but "Sorry, due to low demand we've dropped support for Linux and Mac. However, please accept our offer of a reduced-price subscription to Windows11 Virus Edition, good for the next 30 days." I can guarantee that Autodesk's past actions are going to factor heavily into my company's decision to upgrade or not moving forward, and I would appreciate Autodesk offering the same OS support assurances as they seem to be offering currently regarding the longevity of their license servers. Sincerely, Bob Johnson Hi Bob, I hope you're doing well. I commend on your record keeping :). I'm sure you will agree with me that Linux today is not what it was when Autodesk dropped Linux support in R14. Linux is everyday becoming more and more viable as workstation operating system. The "year of the Desktop" came and went in my opinion. Autodesk is becoming more aware of this, and the fact that we were able to continue supporting linux is a testament of this. I think the future is bright for Linux at Autodesk. As far as EAGLE is concerned we are committed to continuing cross-platform support. Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia

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reverant Jan 19, 2017 1:58 PM (in response to e14candies) 70. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I was about to post the same thing. How does this affect upgrades? Upgrades work as they had in the past, for the most part. Will I be required to pay ‘maintenance’? Simply put, no. I feel really, really betrayed here. That was just 6 months ago.

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Joop14 Jan 19, 2017 2:24 PM (in response to reverant) 71. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Quote from reply #126: (technolomaniac aka Matt Berggren, the Director of Autodesk Circuits) Quote: ...it's not going subscription. http://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/autodesk-buys-eagle/126/ In six months, Autodesk can change completely their opinion. How reliable are they? What about all their statements here? What are they worth after six months? -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

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rick_b Jan 19, 2017 2:28 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 72. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Matt Berggren: Please reply to this post. http://www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/mv/msg/52902/168347/45b65797cd4e09a2431dcc38f062dd05/#msg_168347 Rick -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

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CadSoft Guest Jan 19, 2017 4:33 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 73. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 19/01/17 19:29, Jorge Garcia wrote: Well, how have I been? Honestly, I can take it. Actually I wasn't referring to you because I've never needed support for Eagle (I've occasionally asked questions on this forum but got most of my answers from fellow users in the same way I would for open-source tools). Eric referred to an unnamed piece of software, I merely extended that to the general case from my experience of commercial software. Cadsoft have, in the past, behaved far more like an open-source team in that users' questions and opinions have been listened to and treated with respect. We can only hope that will continue.

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synfinatic Jan 19, 2017 6:10 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 74. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

So four things really concern me @ Matt Berggren, 1. You told everyone 6 months ago that Eagle wasn't going subscription... But I'm sure we're supposed to trust you now! Because of your long history of accurately predicting the future? 2. CadSoft already once pissed off its customers with a subscription licensing change and ~6 months after purchase by AutoDesk you pull the exact same crap. Talk about not learning from past mistakes/listening to your customers! 3. All this talk about you'd never turn off the licensing server because that would upset your customers is hollow. Realistically speaking we all know things changeAutoDesk is committed to PCB design today, but that may not be true in the future. Things change (see #1). Maybe AutoDesk ends up pissing off their customers (see #2) or you just can't innovate fast enough (hmmmm... I bet the Eagle software is full of technical debt being such an old code base- I bet it's not easy to work on). What happens when a bunch of your customers leave and it no longer becomes worth developing and then maintaining the licensing servers? Companies write off acquisitions far larger then CadSoft/Eagle and kill off projects/services all the time. Please don't tell me to trust you. If it's not in the contact/license then it's not enforceable. 4. The fact that you've announced this change and haven't apparently thought everything through. Where is the Maker level? I paid $169 for something and now you don't seem to have a path forward for me. Again, a not so subtle hint that I don't matter as a customer. Sure you'll announce something "soon", but obviously I wasn't a priority. Now I have fear, uncertainty and doubt about AutoDesk/Eagle about the long term. Seriously, I get it. Selling a subscription provides AutoDesk a lot of advantages: 1. Smooths out your revenue and makes it easier to predict your financials to the market, plan internally, etc 2. Re-occuring revenue is awesome! 3. Everyone else is doing it! Now maybe things will end up being better in the long run. I dunno. But right now I can tell you that things look really bad and you've lost a lot of good will with the Eagle community. At this point, I'll have to re-evaluate KiCad and other alternatives before I sign up for the subscription, where as if you had just kept the same licensing model I most likely would of just paid the money without worrying about it.

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e14candies Jan 19, 2017 7:03 PM (in response to synfinatic) 75. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

@Dave, it's not going subscription. So there. At this stage, that isn't anywhere on my roadmap. Thought about it. Decided against it. Can I say that we will never in the life of any product do that? No, of course not. That would be at best unfair, at worst dishonest. But I have so many things that are more pressing. The point of my response - which I agree was unclear was - routing, real-time DRC, some improvements to polygon handling, better revision management and versioning, better BOM tools, better interface to manufacturing, some library improvements, interface to 3D, etc are all good things to worry about today as they drive value for the users. Those are the priority. We'll shelve the other stuff until get to a place where that makes sense. That was the point of that comment. I've got other stuff on my radar. And I think that the shortlist today is pretty much a who's-who of what folks have been asking for for some time. Only now we have a combined development team that can really drive some of this home. Thanks for calling me out...I sounded like a politician and it was totally fair. -http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: The original and best browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums. Supported by EAGLE licenses purchased through us :: http://www.eaglelicenses.com

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rbtx99 Jan 19, 2017 7:20 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 76. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Matt Berggren, for a director of Autodesk you certainly don't seem to have understood what your company has purchased. I am sure you have many corporate customers but EAGLE seems to have widespread use in small entrepreneurial companies that run on small budgets. It's not that we don't have $500 a year to spend on subscription but there are many other more important things to spend the $500 on. Your subscription licensing will certainly kill a big part of that side of your business and I can tell you, unlike corporations we are a lot more flexible in changing our preferred software tools. When Microsoft changed to subscription model for MS Office we changed to Open Office. It took me a few weeks to find my way around some of the advanced functions in the spreadsheet but now we won't even think of looking back. I have the feeling we will be doing the same with EAGLE and KiCAD. It is a learning curve for sure, but it is ahead on EAGLE in many aspects and it is receiving massive support from CERN and other research projects. It is fast becoming the science community standard and whilst some people like Jorge Garcia above may look down on it I know people at STFC where I used to work that design satellite electronics with KiCAD.

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e14candies Jan 19, 2017 10:33 PM (in response to rbtx99) 77. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

What's the new feature... Hmmm...sounds familiar? now pay a subscription for it until it works or never does. Thank you for using EAGLE and participating on our forums. I am really sorry that at this time the BGA Router is not working as expected. I have contacted the developers and made a note on their thread. I am not able to provide you a timeline, but I can assure you that they are currently working on it. =================================== Re: Where has the ULP library gone? ... 01-19-2017 09:53 AM in reply to: talon2000 Hello That part of the site is still not working properly. We hope to have it working in the next few days. Sorry about the inconvenience yes, working on it -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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lynxofsausage Jan 19, 2017 11:53 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 78. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

1st) PLEASE stop comparing or referring to the Microsoft and Adobe subscription models. I'm a subscriber of both. I pay $100/year to Microsoft for 5 of their most popular and useful products (+ some cloud services) for licenses to run them on up to 5 concurrent machines. I pay $600/year to Adobe for their ENTIRE product catalog with licenses for 2 concurrent machines. Autodesk wants to charge $500/year for JUST Eagle for, I believe, 2 machines though the way you request a second home license and the terms of use are clearly not transparent and quite frankly vague . These are apples verses alien devil fruit comparisons. Please stop. 2nd) As other have pointed out, with the introduction of 7.0, CADSoft tried the tethered license server authentication method and users revolted. I don't see the addition of a subscription pricing model sugar-coating that pill any. 3rd) Just from a historical personal record of payments to CADSoft as a professional license owner since version 5.x, AutoDesk is now asking me to double my annual cost of ownership. Potentially they are asking me to quadruple my cost of ownership if you consider I use Eagle today on my office computer, home computer, and field laptop. I didn't initially upgrade to Eagle 7.x because of the 2 machine limit. This is a real deal breaker for me. 4th) Lastly CADSoft has never polled my feature interest for road-map input. I never use any of the 7.x new features. I don't consider any of the new features of 8.x worthy of a significant investment. Add a parallel matched length group auto-router or any real simulation tools and my pocket book is wide open. From my perspective, CADsoft has been very misaligned with me as a consumer. AutoDesk is moving in the wrong direction. Time to swallow the KiCAD pill... R.I.P.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 20, 2017 1:33 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 79. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Jorge Garcia schrieb: I would encourage everyone who sees subscription and says "I'm out" to give it a try and then form an opinion, right now most of these posts just seem to be reactionary. You still miss the point, completely. Being able to work on my own data, without any "online" permission from anyone, with a software that I own, is essential to me (and obviously many others) and not open for discussion in any way. I simply won't rent software. Tilmann

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KE5FX Jan 20, 2017 4:49 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 80. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 1/19/2017 9:06 AM, Jorge Garcia wrote: If I had a business, I don't think I would be comfortable with that. I would want to know that if I have a question or problem there is someone I can reach out to and get a quick response. What you've done here is create a massive incentive for someone to start a business doing the same thing for KiCAD that Red Hat does for Linux. -- john, KE5FX

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tek Jan 20, 2017 5:46 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 81. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Having been burned years ago with the AutocadLT debacle, I guess it's time for me to swallow the KiCad pill as well. But at least I will still have Eagle 6.x to be able to work with my existing designs. The importance of this was just driven home here: Last week I spun up a Protel98 instance to get at an old design. Yep, it still works.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 20, 2017 6:13 AM (in response to tek) 82. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Tom Kopec < [email protected]> wrote: ... But at least I will still have Eagle 6.x to be able to work with my existing designs. The importance of this was just driven home here: Last week I spun up a Protel98 instance to get at an old design. Yep, it still works. Autodesk requires you to delete older versions when you upgrade! Another showstopper. -Uwe Bonnes [email protected] Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt Tel. 06151 1623569 Fax. 06151 1623305

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lynxofsausage Jan 20, 2017 6:24 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 83. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Someone on HaD pointed out the terms of service that stated you also forfeit your previous license when you upgrade. I don't understand the legal basis for that. If I previously purchased a 7.x license in the past, I own that license - period. Even if I buy a 1 year subscription to 8.0 -> whatever is out in 1 year, I don't forfeit what I've already paid for. AutoDesk has no legal grounds for this. If I lease a new car for full lease price, I don't have to give the dealership my old used car - even if I had purchased it from them in the past.

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rbtx99 Jan 20, 2017 6:45 AM (in response to lynxofsausage) 84. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

They can if it is a clear part of an upgrade license contract. However given that is is subscription based you can get the subscription independently and that way they can't force anything on your old license.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 20, 2017 6:48 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 85. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 20.01.2017 13:13, Uwe Bonnes wrote: Tom Kopec < [email protected]> wrote: ...

But at least I will still have Eagle 6.x to be able to work with my existing designs. The importance of this was just driven home here: Last week I spun up a Protel98 instance to get at an old design. Yep, it still works.

Autodesk requires you to delete older versions when you upgrade! Another showstopper. What? Can this be right? I did wonder where I could get at a trial for V8, but it can wait. I will not feel good if I have to remove my 7.7.0 to even try V8.

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edison71 Jan 20, 2017 9:57 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 86. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Autodesk seems to think that Eagle is some kind of a premium CAD tool... Eeeeeh! Wrong, it's mainly for hobbyists and small scale production. There are several other competitors offering better performance and more functions at a lower licence/subscription cost, than you with your new subscription price rates. The main reason my company bought Eagle was that the price/performance ratio was just about good enough. With this subscription model, you have lost us and many others, and you are surely sawing of the branch Eagle is sitting on. To paraphrase South Park: -Oh no! Autodesk killed Eagle! -You b.......!!!

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e14candies Jan 20, 2017 10:53 AM (in response to edison71) 87. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Sadly, whatever the good efforts of the developers were, they have been 100% wasted now. The loss of goodwill, the anger and disdain far outweighs any new routing methods, clicking improvements or other tweaks. The features could have been brought out to excite everyone, but instead now Autodesk has a serious black eye and have embarrassed themselves for foolishness. It even questions AD's other products and schemes now as well. That does not mean all is lost, but there will be no trumpets or applause this round. -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 20, 2017 12:43 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 88. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 1/20/2017 7:48 AM, Morten Leikvoll wrote: On 20.01.2017 13:13, Uwe Bonnes wrote:

Tom Kopec < [email protected]> wrote: ...

But at least I will still have Eagle 6.x to be able to work with my existing designs. The importance of this was just driven home here: Last week I spun up a Protel98 instance to get at an old design. Yep, it still works.

Autodesk requires you to delete older versions when you upgrade! Another showstopper.

What? Can this be right? I did wonder where I could get at a trial for V8, but it can wait. I will not feel good if I have to remove my 7.7.0 to even try V8. Hi Everyone, No one has to remove anything, Autodesk will not be hunting anyone down. Remember that these terms apply to V8 moving forward. You guys have perpetual V7 licenses and you can continue to use them forever as it has always been. Things only change with V8 going forward. hth, Jorge Garcia

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rbtx99 Jan 20, 2017 4:14 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 89. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On the positive side I feel confident that Autodesk will see the EAGLE customer base plummet and hopefully they will resell EAGLE to someone that understands the EAGLE customer base. If my current version can keep me going in the meantime I will upgrade then.

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dharris2112 Jan 20, 2017 1:51 PM (in response to rbtx99) 90. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I found this thread when I went to upgrade my v7.5 license to v7.7 and was redirected to the Autodesk site. I had seen the email last year about the Autodesk purchase but quite frankly forgot about it. Like others who have already posted, I have a Premium license. The ROI to continue under a subscription scheme is not there for me. I didn't even know about KiCAD until now. Reviewing their webpage makes me want to try it . 32 layers, trace tuning, hmm. There are downsides to free software mainly "fast" technical support and "fast" bug fixes (although this isn't always the case). However, the new pricing structure has me looking at KiCAD (free being icing on the cake). Maybe after this revolt, Autodesk/Eagle will go back to the old perpetual license structure; Or at least "de-cloud" the license so you don't need an active subscription to use the revision you already have on your workstation(s). At that point, I'll re-evaluate an upgrade to the latest. As of now, I'm evaluating KiCAD and we'll see how well it works for me. Regards, Dave H.

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rick_b Jan 20, 2017 4:28 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 91. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Matt Berggren appears to be ignoring this thread after being called out for his comments on EEV Blogg ***************************************************** Quote from EEVblog "@Dave, it's not going subscription. So there. At this stage, that isn't anywhere on my roadmap. Thought about it. Decided against it. Can I say that we will never in the life of any product do that? No, of course not. That would be at best unfair, at worst dishonest. But I have so many things that are more pressing." *************************************** He is also ignoring my question regarding the make version of Eagle. Matt Berggren said in his own blog: "What about the $169, 6-Layer Make License? The $169 non-commercial Maker license lives on and will continue to live on for the foreseeable future. This is a great tool for people requiring that extra bit of horsepower for their personal projects!" ************************************** I wrote in a previous post: "I purchased this last year with the expectation of upgrading to the next major version, but I see no mention of it on the Autodesk website. Details please." ************************************************ Matt: Your refusal to address these points is disturbing. I feel that at the very least, current license owners should be grandfathered in under the old license terms and upgrade costs to version 8 plus all minor upgrades. New purchasers going forward know what the existing terms are before buying. Grandfathered upgrades to version 8 would have the choice of staying with version 8 or subscribing to go forward. You have done more to boost the ranks of KiCad users than you realize. Your call. Rick Brown -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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rbtx99 Jan 20, 2017 5:04 PM (in response to rick_b) 92. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

We all purchased it at one point or another with the expectation that there will be continuation under the same license conditions. I guess I had more use out of it than you did but I still feel betrayed with the changes. Obviously EAGLE expect that they will force us to the subscription model but that's where they are wrong. Small companies and hobbyists are a lot more flexible in changing their preferred tools. In fact the clock of customer departure is already ticking. Just as I type this I am experimenting with KiCAD after seeing some cool features that my version of EAGLE doesn't have. I'd still like to buy an EAGLE upgrade if it was available today but come next month, after I have completed a project in KiCAD and passed the learning curve, I probably will never bother to look back.

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e14candies Jan 20, 2017 5:33 PM (in response to rbtx99) 93. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Nice to know Autodesk may be willing to waive any late fees, once Eagle has them in place: Re: AutoCAD Subscription Late Fees! 08-08-2013 02:38 PM in reply to: jtomkinson Autodesk is waiving the Autodesk late fee if you meet the criteria to late renew under current Autodesk policy. Please contact your reseller and ask them for more details or feel free to contact Microsol Resources Corporation at 888-768-7568 and advise reception you need information on Autodesk late Subscription renewal. -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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rbtx99 Jan 20, 2017 5:40 PM (in response to e14candies) 94. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

That post is from 2013, totally different topic.

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e14candies Jan 20, 2017 5:53 PM (in response to rbtx99) 95. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

That post is from 2013, totally different topic. Not once there is a late fee for subscription renewal! -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca

:: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 20, 2017 6:48 PM (in response to dharris2112) 96. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 21/01/2017 8:51 a.m., David Harris wrote: I found this thread when I went to upgrade my v7.5 license to v7.7 and was redirected to the Autodesk site. I had seen the email last year about the Autodesk purchase but quite frankly forgot about it. Like others who have already posted, I have a Premium license. The ROI to continue under a subscription scheme is not there for me. I didn't even know about KiCAD until now. Reviewing their webpage makes me want to try it . 32 layers, trace tuning, hmm. There are downsides to free software mainly "fast" technical support and "fast" bug fixes (although this isn't always the case). However, the new pricing structure has me looking at KiCAD (free being icing on the cake). Maybe after this revolt, Autodesk/Eagle will go back to the old perpetual license structure; Or at least "de-cloud" the license so you don't need an active subscription to use the revision you already have on your workstation(s). At that point, I'll re-evaluate an upgrade to the latest. As of now, I'm evaluating KiCAD and we'll see how well it works for me. Regards, Dave H. Hi Dave as I understand it, your paid v7.5 licence is applicable to v7.7. You should be able to load up 7.7 and apply the licence details you acquired around v7.5 time Jorge should be able to confirm this. HTH Warren

-... use NNTP://news.cadsoft.de and a functional news reader like Thunderbird! ... or http://www.eaglecentral.ca browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 21, 2017 2:03 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 97. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Am 20.01.2017 um 19:42 schrieb Jorge Garcia: On 1/20/2017 7:48 AM, Morten Leikvoll wrote:

On 20.01.2017 13:13, Uwe Bonnes wrote:

Tom Kopec < [email protected]> wrote: ...

But at least I will still have Eagle 6.x to be able to work with my existing designs. The importance of this was just driven home here: Last week I spun up a Protel98 instance to get at an old design. Yep, it still works.

Autodesk requires you to delete older versions when you upgrade! Another showstopper.

What? Can this be right? I did wonder where I could get at a trial for V8, but it can wait. I will not feel good if I have to remove my 7.7.0 to even try V8.

Hi Everyone, No one has to remove anything, Autodesk will not be hunting anyone down. Remember that these terms apply to V8 moving forward. You guys have perpetual V7 licenses and you can continue to use them forever as it has always been. Things only change with V8 going forward. hth, Jorge Garcia IMHO not quite correct. This is part license aggreement from Version 7.7.0: " 1.2.1 Effect of Upgrades. If Autodesk or a Reseller provides Licensee with an Upgrade to other Licensed Materials previously licensed to Licensee, the Licensed Materials previously licensed to Licensee and any other Autodesk Materials relating thereto will thereafter be deemed to be a “Previous Version.” Except as set forth in Section 1.2.2 (Exception for Relationship Program Licensees), the license grant and other rights with respect to any Previous Version will terminate one hundred twenty (120) days after Installation of the Upgrade. Within such one hundred twenty (120) day period, except as set forth in Section 1.2.2 (Exception for Relationship Program Licensees), (a) Licensee must cease all use of any Previous Version and Uninstall all copies of the Previous Version, and (b) upon expiration of such period, such Previous Version will no longer constitute Licensed Materials but rather will be deemed to be Excluded Materials and Licensee will no longer have a license for any such Previous Version. At Autodesk’s request, Licensee agrees to destroy or return to Autodesk or the Reseller from which they were acquired all copies of the Previous Version. Autodesk reserves the right to require Licensee to show satisfactory proof that all copies of any Previous Version have been Uninstalled and, if so requested by Autodesk, destroyed or returned to Autodesk or the Reseller from which they were acquired. " -Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With best regards Joern Paschedag

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CadSoft Guest Jan 21, 2017 3:43 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 98. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 21/01/2017 7:42 a.m., Jorge Garcia wrote: On 1/20/2017 7:48 AM, Morten Leikvoll wrote:

On 20.01.2017 13:13, Uwe Bonnes wrote:

Tom Kopec < [email protected]> wrote: ...

But at least I will still have Eagle 6.x to be able to work with my existing designs. The importance of this was just driven home here: Last week I spun up a Protel98 instance to get at an old design. Yep, it still works.

Autodesk requires you to delete older versions when you upgrade! Another showstopper.

What? Can this be right? I did wonder where I could get at a trial for V8, but it can wait. I will not feel good if I have to remove my 7.7.0 to even try V8.

Hi Everyone, No one has to remove anything, Autodesk will not be hunting anyone down. Remember that these terms apply to V8 moving forward. You guys have perpetual V7 licenses and you can continue to use them forever as it has always been. Things only change with V8 going forward. hth, Jorge Garcia No, that does not help. Should one write a ULP in the version 8 era it needs to be tested on earlier releases, should there have been any ulp additions along the way. Being able to test in an earlier version of v8 will be problematical if one has kept updating within their subscription' I do suspect it may not even be possible for future eagles to be co-installed. In that case you will need a secondary PC that has not had upgrades applied so you do have an 8.0 to test on. ULPs and the community are very connected. Break one and you break the other I notice you have to 'hard' install v8. Now I cannot do, as I did for 7.7 and earlier where I don't install but rename the .exe to.zip, unzip and run it isolated from the other earlier versions. You do loose eaglecon but it is my preference. Warren -... use NNTP://news.cadsoft.de and a functional news reader like Thunderbird! ... or http://www.eaglecentral.ca browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 21, 2017 4:53 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 99. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

warrenbrayshaw wrote on Sat, 21 January 2017 21:42 I notice you have to 'hard' install v8. Now I cannot do, as I did for 7.7 and earlier where I don't install but rename the .exe to.zip, unzip and run it isolated from the other earlier versions. You do loose eaglecon but it is my preference. Warren I noticed that too. Luckily on Mac I can just rename/move the folder to where I want it with no registry to edit. Having multiple versions of EAGLE on one machine is absolutely vital for normal, professional operation. I don't blindly go from one version to the next, especially in the middle of projects. I'll install a new version, create some gerbers from older projects and compare output to ensure that nothing funny is going on. That's a bare minimum. No professional worth his/her salt is going to just jump blindly to a new version and delete an earlier version. Cheers, James. -James Morrison ~~~ Stratford Digital http://www.stratforddigital.ca -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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technolomaniac Jan 21, 2017 6:35 PM (in response to lynxofsausage) 100. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

This doesnt apply to this scenario as you previous license was under a Cadsoft license agreement. We have no authority or interest in doing anything to that license as it was a different legal framework under which you made that agreement. Under subscription, there is no "major" release and thus that clause would never apply ...i.e. version 8.0 of EAGLE is only a version number for convenience...as we move forward, this is just EAGLE and there is no "Upgrade" (only an "Update") and thus nothing to force anyone to stop using an older license.

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Joop14 Jan 22, 2017 3:53 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 101. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Matt, You have been proved untrustworthy. Why should we trust you now?? Quote: @Dave, it's not going subscription. So there. At this stage, that isn't anywhere on my roadmap. Thought about it. Decided against it. Can I say that we will never in the life of any product do that? No, of course not. http://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/autodesk-buys-eagle/msg977529/#msg977529 So, everything you say now will be worthless within six months! And you want me to trust our business to you? -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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Joop14 Jan 22, 2017 9:58 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 102. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Quote: 2.1.3 Territory. Except as otherwise authorized in writing by Autodesk, the licenses granted in this Agreement are granted only for the Territory. Nothing in this Agreement permits Licensee (including, without limitation, Licensee's Personnel, if any) to Install or Access the Licensed Materials outside of the Territory. Territory? So I can't use Eagle when I travel outside of the states without buying a new license for that territory? http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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rbtx99 Jan 22, 2017 11:32 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 103. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

As it stands with the current EAGLE subscription prices... OrCAD standard price = 3 years of EAGLE subscription, OrCAD Pro pice = 5 years subscription. I am still evaluating KiCad but I am now also considering the possibility of getting OrCAD standard. Comparison Page - OrCAD PCB Designer | OrCAD

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rachaelp Jan 22, 2017 12:10 PM (in response to rbtx99) 104. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

rbtx99 wrote: As it stands with the current EAGLE subscription prices... OrCAD standard price = 3 years of EAGLE subscription, OrCAD Pro pice = 5 years subscription. I am still evaluating KiCad but I am now also considering the possibility of getting OrCAD standard. Comparison Page - OrCAD PCB Designer | OrCAD I think what you are looking at there is just the PCB editor. You'd also need OrCAD Capture too for schematic entry in oder to have a complete suite to replace EAGLE so price wise it may not as favourable against EAGLE as you think.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 22, 2017 1:13 PM (in response to Joop14) 105. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 15:24:28 +0100, Joop < [email protected]> wrote: I believe Autodesk will not pump money into Cadsoft for one or two years without getting enough revenue. They will either change back to the old license management system or they will sell Cadsoft (which opens the opportunity for the new owner to change the licensing system as well). Or most likely, Autodesk will fail to make their projections with Eagle and just pull the plug, killing the product outright. I've just had a similar thing happen on the hardware side. I use (used) an Atmel processor in our main product. Before I made the selection. my factory rep assured me of at least a 10 year life. That was 2011. Fast forward to a couple months ago. MicroChip, Atmel's competitor, bought out Atmel. About 2 weeks later I got an official end-of-life notice on my processor. And they raised the price of the existing stock from less than $4 to $14. I chose a TI replacement processor, based mainly on their excellent support and price/performance ratio. And to add icing to the cake, yesterday TI announced that they were freewaring all their development tools. Fortunately I have enough stock of Atmel processors to allow me to design a new board and port the software over. The new board is being done in KiCAD. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address

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CadSoft Guest Jan 22, 2017 1:28 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 106. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 18:24:06 +0200, Jussi Ilvonen < [email protected]> wrote: Does anyone happen know a good KiCad tutorial aimed for Eagle users? The KiCAD manual is good. What I did was take one of my simpler support boards and re-render it in KiCAD. You'll be right at home in the schematic editor. The layout editor takes a bit more time. One other thing you might consider is supporting the KiCAD development through CERN. Here is the donation page. https://giving.web.cern.ch/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=6 Yesterday I kicked in $500. I expect to do that a couple of times a year. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address

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CadSoft Guest Jan 22, 2017 1:38 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 107. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 12:06:25 -0500, Jorge Garcia < [email protected]> wrote: With an open source tool like KiCAD you are accepting the software as is, there is no promise of prompt support or any professional assistance should you run into problems. You also have no expectation of feature implementations or a constant development cycle. I'm not knocking it's capabilities, simply the fact that using it entails risk just like any other program. CERN has taken over the development support costs and they now have several full time paid programmers. The best of both worlds - FOSS software supported by a commercial entity. If I had a business, I don't think I would be comfortable with that. I would want to know that if I have a question or problem there is someone I can reach out to and get a quick response. Subscribe to the KiCAD support list and see. It's every bit as responsive as this group is. And since KiCAD is open source, if I need something fixed right now, either I'll fix it if I have time or if I don't, I'll hire a programmer. Then send the fix back to CERN to be incorporated into the main codebase. This issue isn't about money, it's about control. I can't speak for the others but I must have control over everything in the critical path for my projects. That's why we're a Linux shop. The only closed source software we use is the TI development environment. And it's just a GUI for gcc. I would encourage everyone who sees subscription and says "I'm out" to give it a try and then form an opinion, right now most of these posts just seem to be reactionary. Not reactionary since we've been through this before. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address

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rbtx99 Jan 22, 2017 2:35 PM (in response to rachaelp) 108. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

I was speaking with someone who purchased it and he told me he paid £1650 for the Standard including some extras that he needed. He designs PCB with it start to end so presumably that includes capture too. Also he mentioned that OrCad includes import function for EAGLE.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 23, 2017 1:23 AM (in response to dharris2112) 109. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

David Harris wrote: I found this thread when I went to upgrade my v7.5 license to v7.7 and was redirected to the Autodesk site. I had seen the email last year about the Autodesk purchase but quite frankly forgot about it. just get 7.7 from ftp://ftp.cadsoft.de/eagle/program/7.7 licence is applicable for all 7.x - Lorenz

your 7.5

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Joop14 Jan 23, 2017 1:38 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 110. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Neon John wrote on Sun, 22 January 2017 20:12 On Thu, 19 Jan 2017 15:24:28 +0100, Joop < [email protected]> wrote:

I believe Autodesk will not pump money into Cadsoft for one or two years without getting enough revenue. They will either change back to the old license management system or they will sell Cadsoft (which opens the opportunity for the new owner to change the licensing system as well).

Or most likely, Autodesk will fail to make their projections with Eagle and just pull the plug, killing the product outright. On the contrary, that's very unlikely. If they pull the plug, they will sell it for sure. If not, all their investments will be lost. When they sell it, they will get back at least a part of their money. -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 23, 2017 2:23 AM (in response to Joop14) 111. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Am 23.01.2017 um 08:36 schrieb Joop: On the contrary, that's very unlikely. If they pull the plug, they will sell it for sure. But who will be interested in buying a ruined product? If not, all their investments will be lost. When they sell it, they will get back at least a part of their money. If there is no buyer, this is a good reason to pull the plug some time sooner, to not let costs sum up. Rene

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rbtx99 Jan 23, 2017 5:05 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 112. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

DipTrace looks like a good replacement and the prise structure is not forbidding to small businesses. Video Guided Tour

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roycearnold Jan 23, 2017 10:37 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 113. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Matt, I wanted to add my corporate opinion on the new subscription license being pursued by AutoDesk for Eagle and other products. To be blunt, it is unacceptable to us. We have multiple license of both AutoDesk Product Design Suite Ultimate (or whatever it is being called now) and Eagle Professional. At this point, our licenses are perpetual and will remain so. Why is the subscription model unacceptable? It really boils down to control. To a slightly lesser extent, these same arguments are applicable to the periodic phone home license approach. If we were to adopt AutoDesk's subscription model, we would in effect be handing the keys to accessing OUR information over to AutoDesk. If we stop paying AutoDesk, we loose the ability to access and work with those files. If AutoDesk has a technical difficulty, we could loose access. If AutoDesk has a DDoS attach, we could loose access. If AutoDesk decides that one or more of the products is no longer of interest to them, we could loose access. If AutoDesk hires a Martin Shkreli who decides Eagle is not making enough money and raises the subscription price, we could loose access. Since most of the products I'm discussing have either an actual or effective proprietary file format, any price increase with a subscription model could be seen from some view points as extortion like in nature. These products are not like Microsoft Office, where if that were to happened, I could very likely open them in a alternate application and continue working with little to no problem (at least for the majority of uses). As a business owner, why would I ever hand over that degree of control to an outside entity. To quote Jorge, our position on this is "non-negotiable". I would encourage AutoDesk to examine a solution for businesses that have a similar requirements. While I remain hopefully, history (particularly with AutoDesk) has not given me any reason to be optimistic. Now there is much more that I could add, but it would likely be in vain. If there appears to be a genuine willingness to address these issues, then perhaps. I will close with the following, I STRONGLY encourage you and the support members to take your customers concerns with a more serious tone. I really do not believe discussion of ski slopes and designer coffee has any place in these discussions (especially from AutoDesk personnel). And the idea of mentioning the most charged US political situation in many peoples lifetimes seems ill advised in my opinion (and if you worked for me it would have just gotten you fired). A large percentage of Eagle users are not even US based. For those that are, you likely just offended a large number of them. Sincerely, Royce Arnold

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synfinatic Jan 23, 2017 11:11 AM (in response to roycearnold) 114. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Well said Royce! Btw, your point of "what happens if Autodesk is DDoS'd" is actually a good point. You may of heard about the huge DDoS's that attacked various sites a few months ago. Apparently tens of thousands of cheap Chinese internet connected video cameras were infected and were used to generate the worlds largest distributed denial of service attacks (over 600Gbps!!) on certain sites. It clogged up the Internet and a lot of web sites and end/users were hurt by the side-effects. A security researcher named Brian Krebs figured out the back story: https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/01/who-is-anna-senpai-the-mirai-worm-author/ What's Minecraft? A video game often played by children (think Legos but on your computer). Turns out running the servers which power this game is good money (people making $50k/mo) and they'd pay for a DDoS of their competitor in hopes that it would drive customers off the competition and hopefully to them. Again, think about this: World's largest DDoS attack over a video game kids play! If I were making my living off Eagle, I would be very hesitant to rely on a licensing scheme that is dependent on the Internet working reliably when it is proven that it can be effectively knocked out for tens of thousands of users over a video game. Or what if AutoDesk is hacked like Sony was a few years ago and the hackers delete on the data on the license servers? Even if they had backups, I bet it would take a few days before they had it working again. Or what about those worms which infect your computer and then encrypt all your data and then black mail you into paying to decrypt it? The more profitable and successful the company is, the bigger the target. I can see some hackers looking to make some $$$ start blackmailing companies like AutoDesk. "Nice licensing server you've got there... would be a shame if something happened to it."

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CadSoft Guest Jan 23, 2017 11:33 AM (in response to rbtx99) 115. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Angelos Gonias wrote on Mon, 23 January 2017 11:05 DipTrace looks like a good replacement and the prise structure is not forbidding to small businesses. Video Guided Tour (http://diptrace.com/support/video-guided-tour/ ) -To view any images and attachments in this post, visit: https://www.element14.com/community/message/213899 DipTrace looks impressive. -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca

:: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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rick_b Jan 23, 2017 12:48 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 116. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

For all intents and purposes, Matt Berggren has ceased posting here, so don't expect any replies. I copied my post from here to the Eagle forum at AutoCad and he is ignoring it there as well. https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/bd-p/3500 Since Stratford Digital is no longer an Eagle reseller, there is no real financial incentive for James Morrison to continue to maintain this forum out of his own pocket. Jorge Garcia may well continue to provide support he for a while but the writing is on the wall. I really do hope there is enough long term resistance to their rental scheme to cause them to rethink this idea. As for me, I have a perpetual license to the make version and will use it until KiCad matures. -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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omega-5 Jan 23, 2017 1:08 PM (in response to roycearnold) 117. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

For example, the whole weekend and even now: - LabVIEW - Licensing "We're sorry, ni.com is temporarily down for site maintenance." Freundliche Grüße / Kind regards Friedrich ... use NNTP://news.cadsoft.de and a functional news reader like Thunderbird! ... or http://www.eaglecentral.ca browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.

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roycearnold Jan 23, 2017 1:07 PM (in response to synfinatic) 118. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Aaron, Thanks. I'll admit I had to sit on my hands for a few days to avoid my initial knee jerk reaction. Yes, DDoS attacks represent a real and present danger to any product depending on the internet for operation. Because of the nature of the attacks and the structure of the internet, they are extremely hard to defend against. The bad news is they will only get worse. Hacking is indeed another real danger. While not currently in Eagle (not sure of 8 have not tried it and will not be given the current circumstances), other AutoDesk products have embraced the cloud. Just imagine all of the corporate data sitting on AutoDesk servers. How secure are they? What is the liability of AutoDesk in the event of a data breach? Again, it all goes back to control. Yeah, cloud services may offer some great options, but if I loose control, I'm not interested. If not in Eagle 8, then I would bet it's already on an internal road map for a future version. If they would only implement it so that it would function off a private server under our control and security, I would be interested. Something to keep in mind is AutoDesk is a publicly traded company. As such, it's primary customers are not the end users, but the shareholders. While there is some overlap in the interests between the two groups, the primary customers will always win. I'm not optimistic that this licensing issue will get resolved in a timely enough manner to prevent the majority of the damage. AutoDesk has been pursuing this license scheme for a couple of years and I have seen no signs of it going away. Royce

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rbtx99 Jan 23, 2017 1:20 PM (in response to rick_b) 119. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

> Since Stratford Digital is no longer an Eagle reseller, there is no real financial incentive for James Morrison to continue to maintain this forum out of his own pocket. That forum sounds like a place where lots of disgruntled EAGLE users would gather. DipTrace might want to sponsor that in exchange of advertising.

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rbtx99 Jan 23, 2017 1:21 PM (in response to roycearnold) 120. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Couldn't agree more.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 23, 2017 1:53 PM (in response to rick_b) 121. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Rick Brown prodded the keyboard with: For all intents and purposes, Matt Berggren has ceased posting here, so don't expect any replies. I copied my post from here to the Eagle forum at AutoCad and he is ignoring it there as well. I recon that he's busy banging someones head against a wall... -Best Regards: Baron. 1 of 1 people found this helpful Actions

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CadSoft Guest Jan 23, 2017 4:29 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 122. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Dave as I understand it, your paid v7.5 licence is applicable to v7.7. You should be able to load up 7.7 and apply the licence details you acquired around v7.5 time Jorge should be able to confirm this. HTH Warren

Confirmed, Jorge Garcia Autodesk Support 1 of 1 people found this helpful Actions

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s.j.dickinson Jan 24, 2017 6:49 AM (in response to rbtx99) 123. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

DipTrace looks good, however I note that their does not appear to be a Linux version. Regards Stephen Stephen Dickinson Organised Technology Ltd 7-4-6 Cameron House White Cross Industrial Estate Lancaster Lancashire LA1 4XF Phone +44 (0)1524 849933 WEB: www.orgtec.co.uk Information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender immediately by returning this email and delete this message from your system. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this information without our prior consent is strictly prohibited. Phone calls may be recorded. Registered in England and Wales - company number 3521877. VAT registration number 866340707. On 23/01/2017 11:05, rbtx99 wrote: DipTrace looks like a good replacement and the prise structure is not forbidding to small businesses. Video Guided Tour (http://diptrace.com/support/videoguided-tour/ ) -To view any images and attachments in this post, visit: https://www.element14.com/community/message/213899

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rachaelp Jan 24, 2017 7:00 AM (in response to s.j.dickinson) 124. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Stephen Dickinson wrote: DipTrace looks good, however I note that their does not appear to be a Linux version. There isn't a native Mac version either. It just bundles up the windows version and runs under wine. Personally I don't want to use CAD tools that require things like wine to be able to operate as updates to wine have been known to break things. These days there are loads of cross platform frameworks that could be used so writing proprietary Windows code and relying on emulation for cross platform compatibility isn't great. It does mean that if you really must use DipTrace and you want to run it on Linux then it's probably possible to get it to run under wine.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 24, 2017 2:13 PM (in response to rachaelp) 125. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 24/01/17 13:00, rachaelp wrote: It does mean that if you really must use DipTrace and you want to run it on Linux then it's probably possible to get it to run under wine. Their web site says it does work, as I recall, but that's not good enough for me, for precisely the same reason you gave.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 24, 2017 2:31 PM (in response to rbtx99) 126. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 23.01.2017 12:05, rbtx99 wrote: DipTrace looks like a good replacement and the prise structure is not forbidding to small businesses. Video Guided Tour (http://diptrace.com/support/videoguided-tour/ ) Another option is Target 3001: http://www.ibfriedrich.com/en/index.html They even have Eagle import for schematics, boards and libraries. In Germany, Eagle and Target have been the main competitors in their segment for a long time already. The price structure is similar. Regards, Dietmar

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Gamma_Sistemi Jan 25, 2017 4:45 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 127. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Why do I have to spend money in advance to buy an Eagle feature that maybe I will not use? When I bought my Eagle license, I evaluated the features that I needed and what the program offered. How many updates will be released in the subscription month/year? What kind of updates will be released? I hope they are just new features, because bug fixes should be free. Sorry, but I pay only for the functions I'm sure that I'll use in my work. So probably, I keep my license 7.7 and simultaneously I'll try an alternative product. Best Regards, Roberto

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rachaelp Jan 25, 2017 5:12 AM (in response to Gamma_Sistemi) 128. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Roberto Pedrazzoli wrote: Why do I have to spend money in advance to buy an Eagle feature that maybe I will not use? When I bought my Eagle license, I evaluated the features that I needed and what the program offered. You aren't paying money in advance to buy features you may not use. You are renting the product for the period of the subscription. Roberto Pedrazzoli wrote: How many updates will be released in the subscription month/year? What kind of updates will be released? I hope they are just new features, because bug fixes should be free. There will be a mixture of both but it's irrelevant because if you have an active subscription you will be entitled to update to a newer version that fixes the bugs, if you don't you won't be entitled to use anything but the freeware version. You will still be able to update your software to the latest freeware version which fixes these bugs but you may not be able to take advantage of the fixes because you may not be able to use them with the freeware restrictions. Roberto Pedrazzoli wrote: Sorry, but I pay only for the functions I'm sure that I'll use in my work. So probably, I keep my license 7.7 and simultaneously I'll try an alternative product. Really? Do you take every piece of software, divide it up by the number of features, assign a "worth" to each of those and offer the supplier what you think those features are worth? The big three ECAD vendors, Mentor, Altium and Cadence, all sell their tools with a requirement to also buy annual support which entitles you to assistance and to download updates and bug fixes. Without paying the large annual maintenance fee you get nothing and the licenses often become unavailable unless you also pay a one-off additional fee to convert to a perpetual archive license once you stop paying for maintenance. It's this last part that the current Autodesk model doesn't cover which is causing most issues for professional users. i.e. what do we do in 10-15 years time when we need to access an old design? Best Regards, Rachael

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omikron Jan 25, 2017 5:26 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 129. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I have the question Will there be the 160cm2 Non profit or amater usage? as it is in 7.x ?

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omikron Jan 25, 2017 5:27 AM (in response to omikron) 130. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

also, I dont want pay yearly for something I usr for no profit.

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albertovignati Jan 25, 2017 8:41 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 131. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Matt, I am a long term Eagle user, and one force point of Egle is the (old) licence schema: I pay for a major release and I have the right to perpetual use of that release, when a new major release comes out I have the choice to to pay to migrate to that. This is an assurance for me. Other softwares I use have a similar licence schema: I pay for a maintenance yearly and I have the right to get the latest release and support; if I stop the maintenance, I still have the right to continue to fully use the latest release I got during the subscription period forever, but I loose the right to get support and newer releases both. I think this schema is good for me and for the softwarehouse (please, remember, I still pay yearly for the maintenace of such softwares!). About Eagle V8 I heard a dreadful news: the licence schema is solely for subscription: if I stop to pay I loose the right to use the software, since it just becomes a viewer. This news is sad for me (no assurance to get a perpetual right of use, even of an outdate release) and for you (you have lost a customer). I had planned to update my Eagle to the latest release this year, but you lead me to avoid the update and to evaluate alternatives. Why on the Earth do you like to punish your legal users? Why on the Earth do not you listen your users? I just read tons of comments and no one user is happy for your choice! Kind regards

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CadSoft Guest Jan 25, 2017 9:23 AM (in response to albertovignati) 132. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 25.01.2017 15:41, Alberto Vignati wrote: > if I stop the maintenance, I still have the right to continue to fully use the latest release I got during the subscription period forever, but I loose the right to get support and newer releases both. I think this schema is good for me and for the softwarehouse (please, remember, I still pay yearly for the maintenace of such softwares!). This is exactly the point that is unacceptable with the new model. Markus

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albertovignati Jan 25, 2017 9:42 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 133. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Jorge, believe me: the big problem is the licence schema, not the price! I pay for maintenance of other tools more and more than you ask to pay for Eagle, but if I stop to pay I DO NOT LOOSE THE RIGHT TO FULLY USE SUCH TOOLS!!!! I loose only the right to have updates, upgrades and support. Is it so difficult to understand? Kind regards

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albertovignati Jan 25, 2017 10:46 AM (in response to rachaelp) 134. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Rachael, "The big three ECAD vendors, Mentor, Altium and Cadence, all sell their tools with a requirement to also buy annual support which entitles you to assistance and to download updates and bug fixes. Without paying the large annual maintenance fee you get nothing and the licenses often become unavailable unless you also pay a one-off additional fee to convert to a perpetual archive license once you stop paying for maintenance. It's this last part that the current Autodesk model doesn't cover which is causing most issues for professional users. i.e. what do we do in 10-15 years time when we need to access an old design?" that's the point: Autodesk at this time does not offer a perpetual licence, for me this means that I still use the old version of Eagle for the old and current projects and for the new I will switch to an alternative which gives me the assurance to edit and manage a project forever. This is the lifecycle of my designs and the reason of which it is not acceptable the new schema. Unless Autodesk changes its policies this is what I will do. Best regards

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CadSoft Guest Jan 25, 2017 11:28 PM (in response to rachaelp) 135. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

rachaelp < [email protected]> wrote: Joop14 wrote: Not acceptable. The permanent license must work the same way like in older versions. No need to activate again when you replace your computer. What if they pull the plug from the activation server? I'm sorry but I think this is just paranoia. Autodesk are a huge company and have been providing products in other areas for many years. They aren't going to pull the server and they aren't going to go out of business an the foreseeable future I don't think so the risk of not being able to re-activate the permanent license is miniscule. Hewlett-Packard was also huge. They bought Palm. Brought out new devices. Then canned the new products at almost the same time that they were released and stopped support for older Palm users a short time thereafter. A "phone home" bfeature is unacceptable to those working in disconnected environments. Disconnected for security reasons (proprietary or other secrets) or because the only connection that they have to the Internet is sporadic or unreliable. AutoDesk *fails* sometimes. e.g. Fusion360 users were left twiddling their thumbs not so long ago when the server became unreachable to some. Machines dependent on Fusion 360 in the workflow could no longer make new stuff. AutoDesk appear to have relaxed the "offline mode" since then but this is what you get now: https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/fusion-360/troubleshooting/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/How-to-work-in-offline-mode-in-Fusion-360.html Can I still work in offline mode? Yes, you can still continue to work on your designs in offline mode. Designs that are cached locally on your machine will be available from the data panel. You can work offline up to a period of two weeks if needed. After this, Fusion 360 will need to sync back online so that you can stay on the latest version. The licence scheme is brain-damaged even for those who accept the risks of connectivity. Causing the software to stop functioning when it cannot "phone home" is a show-stopper for those who don't see a perpetual existence of AutoDesk or its willingness to support Eagle in the years to come. There is not infrequently a need for designers of products to provide support for between 2 and 25 years with the median somewhere around 7 years; depending on product and markets. As far as I can tell, AutoDesk revenue streaming licence scheme for version 8.x can only guarantee to support Eagle users' needs for 14 days; the longest phone-home interval. It's not paranoia to anticipate and to plan for the failure of things that can fail; it's called "engineering". -/"\ Bernd Felsche - Somewhere in Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | For every complex problem there is an X against HTML mail | answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. / \ and postings | --HL Mencken

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drkirkby Jan 26, 2017 8:45 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 136. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Matt Berggren wrote: Hi All - Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether. Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback:

This licensing issue is sure being discussed in a number of places! All around the internet there seems to be moans about it. I've used a number of programs in the past for PCB design * EE Designer * Pads and at least one or two others. But I have not designed boards for some time. Looking now to start designing some boards again, this licensing model would not attract me in the least. In fact, it just re-enforces the view that many have, that Kicad KiCad EDA , which now has backing from The European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) and is rapidly improving, is a better choice. The main group of people that seem to be considering the Eagle license are those with existing designs, that want to keep those designs. It is too time-consuming to move them to Kicad. But for anyone like myself, who is does not have any designs of this type, it just seems a no-brainer. I'm 53 years old, so over the years have come across quite a bit of license server based systems. My experience, and seems to be one shared by many, is that it is a pain for legitimate users, but long-term does not stop people creating hacks. I was reading the time-nuts list, and someone on there wrote that he used to run a lab with Eagle, and often students would spend 20 minutes trying to get a license. I've had problems installing MATLAB and Mathematica - both due to license issues. Agilent's EMPro, and Anysys's HFSS have both caused me license headaches when a legitimate license was paid for. A number of posts on different forums are now suggesting unhappy Eagle customers donate to KiCad. Donations are via CERN https://giving.web.cern.ch/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=6 The number of donations in January 2017 is almost double the same number in January 2016. I wonder if the Autodesk changes on Eagle licensing have had an influence on KiCad funding? Autodesk might be getting a double hit here * Upset their own customers * Encouraging others to donate to a competitive product, that happens to be free. Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 27, 2017 10:48 AM (in response to albertovignati) 137. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 16:46:53 GMT, Alberto Vignati < [email protected]> wrote: Hi Rachael, *It's this last part that the current Autodesk model doesn't cover which is causing most issues for professional users. i.e. what do we do in 10-15 years time when we need to access an old design*?+" Bingo! As coincidence would have it, I had a customer call me at 8AM this morning (Saturday) to tell me that his induction heater, S/N 02 from 2009 had quit working. Fortunately I'd left all versions of Eagle I've ever owned installed on my computer so I could go into SVN, call up the old schematic and tell him what parts to change based on the diagnostic codes. I will NEVER EVER use software where I can't do that! John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address

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CadSoft Guest Jan 27, 2017 12:00 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 138. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 28/01/2017 5:48 a.m., Neon John wrote: On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 16:46:53 GMT, Alberto Vignati < [email protected]> wrote:

Hi Rachael, *It's this last part that the current Autodesk model doesn't cover which is causing most issues for professional users. i.e. what do we do in 10-15 years time when we need to access an old design*?+"

Bingo! As coincidence would have it, I had a customer call me at 8AM this morning (Saturday) to tell me that his induction heater, S/N 02 from 2009 had quit working. Fortunately I'd left all versions of Eagle I've ever owned installed on my computer so I could go into SVN, call up the old schematic and tell him what parts to change based on the diagnostic codes. I will NEVER EVER use software where I can't do that! John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address Hi all In the interest of accuracy. You will always be able to perform John's example of opening a schematic for review. No matter what calamity befell the outside world, you will at least have the freeware abilities which can load large designs. Warren -... use NNTP://news.cadsoft.de and a functional news reader like Thunderbird! ... or http://www.eaglecentral.ca browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.

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Justynb Jan 27, 2017 12:08 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 139. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

warrenbrayshaw wrote on Fri, 27 January 2017 12:59 In the interest of accuracy. You will always be able to perform John's example of opening a schematic for review. No matter what calamity befell the outside world, you will at least have the freeware abilities which can load large designs. I'm sorry but I don't agree. What if you have to reinstall Eagle for some reason, and the licensing server has changed or no longer exists. From what I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong) you cannot install even the freeware version without using the license server. -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 27, 2017 12:23 PM (in response to Justynb) 140. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 28/01/2017 7:05 a.m., Justyn wrote: warrenbrayshaw wrote on Fri, 27 January 2017 12:59

In the interest of accuracy. You will always be able to perform John's example of opening a schematic for review. No matter what calamity befell the outside world, you will at least have the freeware abilities which can load large designs.

I'm sorry but I don't agree. What if you have to reinstall Eagle for some reason, and the licensing server has changed or no longer exists. From what I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong) you cannot install even the freeware version without using the license server. Hi That's a good point. I would keep v7.7. available. It will likely be good for viewing new designs done in Autodesk Eagle, for a while at least. One would need to verify that. We need to understand if the Autodesk freeware version (at least) stores a file that can be backed up and restored with a rebuild, that does not require going online. Warren -... use NNTP://news.cadsoft.de and a functional news reader like Thunderbird! ... or http://www.eaglecentral.ca browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.

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Justynb Jan 27, 2017 12:33 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 141. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

warrenbrayshaw wrote on Fri, 27 January 2017 13:23 That's a good point. I would keep v7.7. available. It will likely be good for viewing new designs done in Autodesk Eagle, for a while at least. One would need to verify that. My guess is that already reusable design blocks will break backwards compatibility, perhaps you can avoid it by not using the feature. I can imagine that it won't take long for other less avoidable format changes to turn up, for example updates to the footprint file format. warrenbrayshaw wrote on Fri, 27 January 2017 13:23 We need to understand if the Autodesk freeware version (at least) stores a file that can be backed up and restored with a rebuild, that does not require going online. I agree, a good question, although I think I'm personally moving on from this strategy. It is all too risky. -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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technolomaniac Jan 27, 2017 4:16 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 142. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Design blocks are a completely unique file type (also XML) and when placed, do not affect the current file format at all so nothing will change as yet but it may be the sort of things which changes over time. We have also agreed internally to build an exporter to legacy (v7) EAGLE to help quell the fears of legacy users...this is on our roadmap for this year. Regarding freeware, as I stated in the Autodesk forums, the next release (probably a week or two away, 8.0.1) will only check the license once when you install and then anytime that you upgrade the tools to a subsequent version. best regards, matt

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CadSoft Guest Jan 27, 2017 4:38 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 143. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Quote: Design blocks are a completely unique file type (also XML) and when placed, do not affect the current file format at all so nothing will change as yet but it may be the sort of things which changes over time. Will you be publishing the spec/dtd for that file type? -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca

:: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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rbtx99 Jan 27, 2017 5:45 PM (in response to Justynb) 144. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

It is not even a question. Online activation is way too risky. I've been using EAGLE as a hobbyist since I was 17 years old and for more than 10 years as a business. There is absolutely no way I am putting my entire life's work on the hands of Autodesk. I want a license/activation key I can use on any computer I please now and any time in the future. If Autodesk can't provide someone else will.

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CadSoft Guest Jan 27, 2017 7:18 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 145. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

On 28/01/2017 11:16 a.m., Matt Berggren wrote: ...... Regarding freeware, as I stated in the Autodesk forums, the next release (probably a week or two away, 8.0.1) will only check the license once when you install and then anytime that you upgrade the tools to a subsequent version. best regards, matt Hi Matt Now there's the problem, which I confess to overlooking previously. If you have to rebuild your PC and the internet validation is not available at that time, you cannot even use the freeware version as currently you would need to go on-line to validate it once. I suggest you change things so that when you seek to download the software for the first time you need to have previously registered with Autodesk. That gives your company the metrics of who is downloading etc. Once that is done once you can download the product and it, as freeware restricted , does not have to revalidate unless you wish to obtain updates later than that initial package. With A PC rebuild you would simply reinstall the package you initially downloaded and you would be up and running on the freeware version. Hence no dependency on an internet connection or licensee validation infrastructure at all at that time. HTH Warren -... use NNTP://news.cadsoft.de and a functional news reader like Thunderbird! ... or http://www.eaglecentral.ca browser access to CadSoft EAGLE support forums.

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technolomaniac Jan 27, 2017 7:38 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 146. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

We will. Yes.

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Ed Robledo Jan 29, 2017 11:54 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 147. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Hi, The dtd file is in the EAGLE\DOC folder. Ed

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geralds Feb 1, 2017 1:09 AM (in response to Ed Robledo) 148. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hello Ed, 1) who is Matt Berggren? Where he is working, employed in AutoDesk? 2) I wrote an answer to Matt here in this thread " EAGLE License Recommendation". https://www.element14.com/community/update-advanced-comment.jspa?id=214891 What is now true? Thank you very much Best Regards Gerald ---

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CadSoft Guest Feb 1, 2017 2:31 PM (in response to geralds) 149. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 2/1/2017 2:09 AM, Gerald Schwarz wrote: Hello Ed, 1) who is Matt Berggren? Where he is working, employed in AutoDesk? He is the director of EAGLE and a few other products here at Autodesk. He is the man at the helm of EAGLE and any decisions related to EAGLE now go through him. He's also a part of the community as an engineer and designer. You can find out more about him here: http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/user/viewprofilepage/user-id/3659220 For his projects check out technolomaniac on hackaday.io https://hackaday.io/matt 2) I wrote an answer to Matt here in this thread "EAGLE License Recommendation (/message/213959/l/eagle-license-recommendat-ion#213959)". https://www.element14.com/community/update-advanced-comment.jspa?id=214891 What is now true? This is where we stand now. EAGLE is going full subscription, we have as of right now free, standard and premium tiers. Here are what each offers (I'm excluding free because you made clear in the other post that you didn't care about free). Standard 160cm^2 area(no longer fixed), 4 Layers(page will be corrected to reflect this it currently says 2 layers), 99 sheets. For $100/year or $15/month. Premium Unlimited area(EAGLE technically can't do more that 4m x 4m because of how it represents points in space. No one makes a single board that big), 16 layers, 999 sheets. For $500/year or $65/month. EAGLE will be releasing updates far more frequently. We are looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of 5-9 updates per year. Just in January we are looking at 2 releases. We will no longer be waiting for major releases to release new features. New features will be released throughout the year. If the subscription expires, EAGLE will fall back to free mode. You can still review your designs and generate manufacturing data. You just won't be able to modify it outside the limits of the free version. The group command is by default active and setup to behave in a more familiar way compared to how other tools use their selection functions. If you want the old behavior back you can click Options > Set > Misc uncheck the Group default on option. This will make group behave just like you are used to. I think that covers everything you asked in the other post but let me know if that is not the case. Thank you very much Best Regards Gerald -- -To view any images and attachments in this post, visit: https://www.element14.com/community/message/214851 Hi Gerald, See my comments inline above. Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia

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Justynb Feb 1, 2017 4:36 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 150. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Hi Jorge, Could you please confirm one way or the other whether it will be made possible to install Eagle in free mode without an internet connection? This is important for long term contingency planning. Thanks. -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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CadSoft Guest Feb 1, 2017 4:51 PM (in response to Justynb) 151. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 2/1/2017 5:35 PM, Justyn wrote: Hi Jorge, Could you please confirm one way or the other whether it will be made possible to install Eagle in free mode without an internet connection? This is important for long term contingency planning. Thanks. Hi Justyn, I hope you're doing well. You can see point number 1 on Matt's response to the EAGLE license recommendation thread. I've copied it below for your convenience: " 1) The free version shouldn't expire and will only require a connection the first time you open it. " This is the latest information I have on the subject. Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia

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slowgoing Feb 1, 2017 11:11 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 152. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Well, that pretty much make Eagle a no go now. Just as well that I have a bunch of the older versions around. Now there much be some open source PCB programs thats worth supporting K

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Joop14 Feb 2, 2017 1:41 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 153. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Jorge Garcia wrote on Wed, 01 February 2017 21:27 On 2/1/2017 2:09 AM, Gerald Schwarz wrote:

Hello Ed, 1) who is Matt Berggren? Where he is working, employed in AutoDesk?

He is the director of EAGLE and a few other products here at Autodesk. He is the man at the helm of EAGLE and any decisions related to EAGLE now go through him. He's also a part of the community as an engineer and designer. You can find out more about him here: http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/user/viewprofilepage/user-id/3659220 For his projects check out technolomaniac on hackaday.io https://hackaday.io/matt

2) I wrote an answer to Matt here in this thread "EAGLE License Recommendation (/message/213959/l/eagle-license-recommendat-ion#213959)". https://www.element14.com/community/update-advanced-comment.jspa?id=214891 What is now true?

This is where we stand now. EAGLE is going full subscription, we have as of right now free, standard and premium tiers. Five months ago Matt Berggren wrote: Quote: @Dave, it's not going subscription. So there. At this stage, that isn't anywhere on my roadmap. Thought about it. Decided against it. Can I say that we will never in the life of any product do that? No, of course not. http://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/autodesk-buys-eagle/msg977529/#msg977529 -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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Joop14 Feb 2, 2017 1:41 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 154. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Jorge Garcia wrote on Wed, 01 February 2017 21:27 On 2/1/2017 2:09 AM, Gerald Schwarz wrote:

Hello Ed, 1) who is Matt Berggren? Where he is working, employed in AutoDesk?

He is the director of EAGLE and a few other products here at Autodesk. He is the man at the helm of EAGLE and any decisions related to EAGLE now go through him. He's also a part of the community as an engineer and designer. You can find out more about him here: http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/user/viewprofilepage/user-id/3659220 For his projects check out technolomaniac on hackaday.io https://hackaday.io/matt

2) I wrote an answer to Matt here in this thread "EAGLE License Recommendation (/message/213959/l/eagle-license-recommendat-ion#213959)". https://www.element14.com/community/update-advanced-comment.jspa?id=214891 What is now true?

This is where we stand now. EAGLE is going full subscription, we have as of right now free, standard and premium tiers. Five months ago Matt Berggren wrote: Quote: @Dave, it's not going subscription. So there. At this stage, that isn't anywhere on my roadmap. Thought about it. Decided against it. Can I say that we will never in the life of any product do that? No, of course not. http://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/autodesk-buys-eagle/msg977529/#msg977529 -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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geralds Feb 2, 2017 9:33 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 155. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Jorge, Thank you for the comments. If the subscription expires, EAGLE will fall back to free mode. You can still review your designs and generate manufacturing data. You just won't be able to modify it outside the limits of the free version. If so, then we cannot create complex components with the version 8 or newer. This is too unsecure for the future. Broken components will be a programmed "super Gau". I must create now the components with the version 6.6.0 because i have it in pro version. Other users can create them with their last perpetual version (e.g. 7.5.0), or going into the risk that after expiring the components will not work correct. // -> The argument "You can review..., ... generate manufacturing data..." looks a bit like lobbyism. How often do we have to generate this data, not often, only once or twice by sending to our circuit board manufacturer or by checking by our customer. This is done by completing our projects. Then all data is stored, archived and returned to our customers. So, now the components are always used endlessly. The components are also used for other projects. -> This is the 2nd important point because we need all the layers from the small PCB to the large PCB. This is our 2nd argument. And that is not lobbying, but it is our technical and business life. -> We will see what this year will bring with Eagle. Last week I received an email from Autodesk Community "Redeem your customer loyalty discount" with a promotion over 50% discount. "ähm...," is that true? Then I feel happy and will use it. Then it helps me to skip version 7 directly. -> At least I can work with the full version in the first year. In the second year, the truth will emerge, whether to lock up and search for another tool, or with Eagle to continue working in further years. I hope that AutoDesk calculates this and comes closer a little more to its customers. Best Regards, Gerald ---

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electrooptical Feb 2, 2017 9:52 AM (in response to slowgoing) 156. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

We have a three-seat license to Eagle 6 Pro, but with this latest snafu we've switched to Diptrace. Wasn't that hard. (As a matter of fact we made the decision at the time of the Autodesk purchase, because we were pretty sure they'd do something like this. Otherwise we'd have bought Eagle 7 Pro.) Diptrace has ASCII import/export. It also supplies Eagle ULPs that export Eagle schematics, boards, *and libraries*. One drawback of Diptrace is that it isn't directly scriptable. We've made a lot of Python scripts that hack up Diptrace's ASCII files, so instead of running a ULP as in Eagle, you export stuff, run a Python script on it, and import it again. The ULPs that Diptrace supplies are good sample code for how to do that. We thought of switching to KiCad, but our layout person much prefers Diptrace. So there's life after Eagle. A pity that Autodesk screwed the pooch like this--we'd certainly have stayed with Eagle otherwise. Cheers Phil Hobbs

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CadSoft Guest Feb 2, 2017 11:06 AM (in response to geralds) 157. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

We will see what this year will bring with Eagle. Last week I received an email from Autodesk Community "Redeem your customer loyalty discount" with a promotion over 50% discount. "ähm...," is that true? Then I feel happy and will use it. Then it helps me to skip version 7 directly. Hi Gerald, The above is very true. Let me know if you have any problems redeeming it or if you need any other assistance. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia Autodesk Support -We have a new forum here

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drkirkby Feb 2, 2017 11:21 AM (in response to slowgoing) 158. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Kim Pedersen wrote: Well, that pretty much make Eagle a no go now. Just as well that I have a bunch of the older versions around. Now there much be some open source PCB programs thats worth supporting K Kicad http://kicad-pcb.org/ is getting a lot of support from CERN, and has apparently really improved as a result of the funding. Dave.

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geralds Feb 2, 2017 12:23 PM (in response to electrooptical) 159. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Phil, no DipTrace is too small. Online Store - DipTrace And the basic problem with this tool is that it is limited with pin numbers. This is a huge problem. Realize this please: route a µBGA and SMD plug with so 1000 pins ... well .... ok, you see the problem? Even with the free version of Eagle, 80mmx100mm and 2 layers, you can route this µBGA, and plug together. This is a huge advantage for Eagle !! And, only the fewest board developers make of a 2 layer routes a 4 layer routes. -> easy to mount wire bridges on each side, you already have a 4 layer board. What I suggest to AutoDesk is much more important and it is necessary. The user must be able to create complex components that can be connected to all layers. Other CAD manufacturers also use pad stacks. Eagle does not have this possibility. Therefore, this is even more important because the pin is directly related to the board. Gerald ----

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electrooptical Feb 2, 2017 12:45 PM (in response to geralds) 160. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Gerald Schwarz wrote: Hi Phil, no DipTrace is too small. Online Store - DipTrace And the basic problem with this tool is that it is limited with pin numbers. This is a huge problem. Realize this please: route a µBGA and SMD plug with so 1000 pins ... well .... ok, you see the problem? Even with the free version of Eagle, 80mmx100mm and 2 layers, you can route this µBGA, and plug together. This is a huge advantage for Eagle !! And, only the fewest board developers make of a 2 layer routes a 4 layer routes. -> easy to mount wire bridges on each side, you already have a 4 layer board. What I suggest to AutoDesk is much more important and it is necessary. The user must be able to create complex components that can be connected to all layers. Other CAD manufacturers also use pad stacks. Eagle does not have this possibility. Therefore, this is even more important because the pin is directly related to the board. Gerald --- If I were doing PC mobos, I might care about that, but I'm not. Diptrace's 2000 pin version is better than good enough for my stuff, and if it ever weren't, I can upgrade to the unlimited version for another 5 bills, i.e. 8 months' rental for the highest-spec Eagle, and then I get to stop paying. The Diptrace folks also run a service bureau, so they eat their own dog food. Re: Free Eagle. You probably aren't going to be doing anything very useful on an 80x100 mm board with a 1000-pin FPGA on it, unless you have some magical connector to get all that stuff off the board. Diptrace is available in an unlimited-pin version, reasonably priced. And I have a perpetual license. And it works stand-alone. And the license terms are reasonable. And I'm certainly not going to use rented software for anything whatsoever. The intellectual property embodied in our designs is way too valuable to put it at another company's mercy like that, especially given Autodesk's flip-flop on the subscription model. We still like Eagle round here, and would have been very unlikely to change except for the new licensing terms, despite the recent steep price increases--but the rental thing is a deal breaker. However, we've moved on and won't be back. Cheers Phil Hobbs

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geralds Feb 2, 2017 1:20 PM (in response to electrooptical) 161. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi, Yes, it is true. I also do not love what AutoDesk do. But currently I can not switch to another tool. I am from PCAD, Protel, Altium Designer .. .. I have no money to pay 1000e ... EUR every year plus support over 1000 / y. My last PCAD was 2001 (cost 10000 EUR) plus 1200 EUR support (2001-2003). Now the Altium Designer costs 6000 EUR; Altium Circuit Maker about 1200 EUR, or more ... Mr. Friedrich laughs. http://www.ibfriedrich.com/en/index.html#productsPage - is a direct contest to Eagle. Where should I go? - if you have already set up all the tools, has been optimized, depends on its customers .. Eagle is not used every day, so it is even more difficult. We also program µController, build modules, but are few employees. Eagle is a fine European product, now it was nibbled with a bargain billing. Gerald ---

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electrooptical Feb 2, 2017 1:28 PM (in response to geralds) 162. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Gerald Schwarz wrote: Hi, Yes, it is true. I also do not love what AutoDesk do. But currently I can not switch to another tool. I am from PCAD, Protel, Altium Designer .. .. I have no money to pay 1000e ... EUR every year plus support over 1000 / y. My last PCAD was 2001 (cost 10000 EUR) plus 1200 EUR support (2001-2003). Now the Altium Designer costs 6000 EUR; Altium Circuit Maker about 1200 EUR, or more ... Mr. Friedrich laughs. http://www.ibfriedrich.com/en/index.html#productsPage - is a direct contest to Eagle. Where should I go? - if you have already set up all the tools, has been optimized, depends on its customers .. Eagle is not used every day, so it is even more difficult. We also program µController, build modules, but are few employees. Eagle is a fine European product, now it was nibbled with a bargain billing. Gerald --Well, Diptrace is from Ukraine, which is in Europe too, last time I checked. (Of course Poland moved 100 miles west some years back, so I may be out of date.) Diptrace will import your existing Eagle files, including libraries. But for most purposes, just sticking with Eagle 6/7 is good enough.Plus that way you can archive the tool along with the design. Cheers Phil Hobbs

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rbtx99 Feb 17, 2017 5:37 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 163. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Have you guys at Autodesk noticed that Sparkfun and Adafruit moved to KiCad? You can pretty much kiss the hobby and Arduino markets goodbye.

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CadSoft Guest Feb 17, 2017 10:52 AM (in response to rbtx99) 164. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 2/17/2017 6:37 AM, rbtx99 wrote: Have you guys at Autodesk noticed that Sparkfun and Adafruit moved to KiCad? You can pretty much kiss the hobby and Arduino markets goodbye. -To view any images and attachments in this post, visit: https://www.element14.com/community/message/216022 Hello rbtx99, Could you point me to the official releases from Sparkfun and Adafruit stating this? I haven't heard anything official related to a move to Kicad. Thank you in advanced. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia -We have a new forum here

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rbtx99 Feb 17, 2017 11:04 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 165. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I happen to land on the Sparkfun website earlier and noticed that some new products have KiCad schematics. You can check it out yourself. From curiosity I googled it and found a thread mentioning that Adafruit are considering to go the same way due to customer demands. Unfortunately I can't easily find it again for you.

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Ed Robledo Feb 17, 2017 12:11 PM (in response to rbtx99) 166. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

rbtx99 wrote: Have you guys at Autodesk noticed that Sparkfun and Adafruit moved to KiCad? You can pretty much kiss the hobby and Arduino markets goodbye. Hi, Adafruit has always mentioned KiCAD as an open source alternative, I couldn't find any official announcement that Sparkfun or Adafruit were transitioning to a specific program. BTW: we will continue supporting a free version of EAGLE. With our latest update Educators and Students can get free access to the premium version. Any links will be greatly appreciated. Best Regards, Ed

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technolomaniac Feb 17, 2017 1:25 PM (in response to rbtx99) 167. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

What was the purpose of the post? If you're trolling, can you take it elsewhere please and keep the conversation about EAGLE, how to use EAGLE, features of EAGLE, etc? If you have a specific link other than "check the web for more details!" then great, it'd be good to see! However in the absence of it, what are you telling us? Did this discussion have something to do with EAGLE licensing? Has your EAGLE license stopped working? Are you using freeware or a paid license? Feedback welcome.

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bvwj Feb 17, 2017 2:34 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 168. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

The purpose of that post was to get your attention. Your license changes have likely destroyed your product. You haven't listened to your small customers. Adafruit and Sparkfun are concrete evidence from your bell cow customers.

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technolomaniac Feb 17, 2017 3:46 PM (in response to bvwj) 169. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Thank you for the reply. And my comment was simply that telegraphing your frustrations as a statement like that, without a link to the article, post, etc. is not productive. We understand that for some percentage of users, the license changes were undesirable. This is something that we've discussed in detail and we are doing *much* more than simply 'changing the licensing' with EAGLE. The real value of eagle is around productivity in engineering and design, and we are improving productivity each and every day. The features that are coming (obstacle avoidance in routing, better trace cleanup and alignment tools, push and shove & multitrack routing, bidirectional MCAD integration, better layer handling, improvements to libraries and component creation, etc.) will define the future of EAGLE far more than the licensing model. Cheers, Matt - Autodesk.

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electrooptical Feb 17, 2017 5:27 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 170. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Well, maybe there's a niche available between Kicad and Diptrace on one side and Altium on the other that you folks can move Eagle into. Best of luck with that--the SaaS model does seem to be alienating your existing user base pretty comprehensively, so hopefully there are lots of folks waiting in the wings to pounce on the new-improved versions. I wish you folks well, but I won't be along for the ride. Cheers Phil Hobbs

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drkirkby Feb 17, 2017 5:32 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 171. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Matt Berggren wrote: Thank you for the reply. And my comment was simply that telegraphing your frustrations as a statement like that, without a link to the article, post, etc. is not productive. We understand that for some percentage of users, the license changes were undesirable. This is something that we've discussed in detail and we are doing *much* more than simply 'changing the licensing' with EAGLE. The real value of eagle is around productivity in engineering and design, and we are improving productivity each and every day. The features that are coming (obstacle avoidance in routing, better trace cleanup and alignment tools, push and shove & multitrack routing, bidirectional MCAD integration, better layer handling, improvements to libraries and component creation, etc.) will define the future of EAGLE far more than the licensing model. Cheers, Matt - Autodesk. As a matter of interest, what was Autodesk's motivation for changing the licensing so a license server needs to be running? Clearly adding better layer handling improves a tool, but I'm interested what prompted the decision to change the license model. Eagle is obviously aimed at reasonably technically savvy people, and those sort of people tend to foresee the problems such a system could cause. If you pay a monthly subscription to get access to TV channels, and your TV needs to connect to a license server via the internet, people would probably not care. It's a bit different when the product is a bit of software like Eagle, where people might expect to use it in years to come, and obviously are concerned that they will lose access to the files. 90% of the test equipment in my lab is made by HP or Agilent. Of that, almost all is obsolete, and no longer supported. It is a good job none of it has to connect to the internet to keep working. I can think of any number of computer programs that were very popular in their time, but are no longer sold or supported. I * WordPerfect * Lotus 123 * Wordstar being 3 that come to mind. Oh, and just as I was looking for a list of obsolete software, I came across this Autodesk Softimage 2015 Final Release Announcement. Softimage 2015 Final Release Announcement where it says "We regret to inform you that the upcoming 2015 release will be the last one for Softimage® software. This final version is expected to ship on or around April 14, 2014. Autodesk will continue to offer product support until April 30, 2016. We will also provide Softimage support services (including Hot Fixes and Service Packs) to all Softimage customers with Autodesk Subscription, at no cost, until April 30, 2016." Perhaps, when you consider the software packages that are no longer sold or supported, you realize that many people don't want to invest time/effort into something that could stop working. Barings Bank started trading in 1762. More than 300 years later the bank folded, due to the actions of one single employee - Nick Leason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barings_Bank Past history of software and commercial companies leaves one feeling that a bit of software that relies on a server someone else controls, is not a good idea. For me personally, it is a no brainer - I would never purchase software that works on this license model. Dave

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geralds Feb 18, 2017 3:39 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 172. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hello Matt, I'm sure you've also read my posts in the Eagle forums. First of all, thank you, also to Jorge, for upgrading my proposal on the circuit boards (standard PCB) layers from two layers to four layers. Fine, but I asked over 4 years for many other features, features that we had since the 6. version. - e.g. standard PCB 160cm² with 6 layers. Or features that I've been working with since 198x, 199x's ... with PCAD, what I've suggested to get it also in Eagle. The ears were sleeping. Since then I know that with Cadsoft will very difficult, it will be messy with all. So the price, the licensing policy gives me right, gives me true, what I said. And I'm not alone. I also know about AutoDesk since the 198x's (in 200x's I was also a reseller of special tools like this, eg Autocad or similar). Ok, ok, ok, ok, ... actually I can not change the tool, back to PCAD / Master Designer; It's too expensive at the moment. And my customer also have Eagle. This is the point - Eagle have nothing to do with other (since MSDOS era), and that have over 30 years. Ok, after 30 years you will now take off Eagle like a rocket; Hm, are you sure the headwind is not too strong yet? As I have often described: In order to work properly, we need ALL layers, even with the small standard PCB. Otherwise it is a toy. TODAY in the 21st century, the standards are quite different than they were 30 years ago. How should you use a standard PCB to route PGA or BGA with many pins? So, you NEED more than 4 layers. The dimension (routing area) is another standard. Here we can discuss the price. The next lobbying game is: "schools, universities get 3 years free license". What should that? Why should we pay for the schools? This is an over advantage. First with V8.0.x if it is possible: ) What i need is "impedance controlled routing" Wire pairs, where are this button? ) Bus routing is most important, manually also automatic. ) Today we have RF-PCB, not just digitally. Mixed topologies of PCB with e.g. WLAN on board. ) Today we have also air or liquid cooled PCBs or we have components mounted in layers. ) AND THIS ALL WITH STANDARD PCB! ) Pad-Stacks separat through all layers, that we can create complex pads. ) Flash!!!! of pads not just drawing. Then the pads, or polygons does not coming as octagons. ) Editing wire shapes, vertices (not just mitering, -> Split; where is " Unsplit "). Button "Optimize" - hm..... !!!) After expiring the license period that the license must stay at last update quality. It is horrible if the dimension will falling down to a demo version, to a toy of 80cm² with two layers. ... etc.... I have a company that works also hard to get projects, also what i said in the other forums here. I think, you see the problematics what have small companies. Best Regards, Gerald ---

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Joop14 Feb 18, 2017 1:52 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 173. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Matt Berggren wrote on Fri, 17 February 2017 22:46 We understand that for some percentage of users, the license changes were undesirable. What percentage? 70%? 80%? 90%? So, you do understand but you are not willing to revert back to the old license system, despite that five months ago you said you shouldn't go subscription... Matt Berggren wrote on Fri, 17 February 2017 22:46 This is something that we've discussed in detail ... Discussions are futile if they are not followed up by actions the customers want. Matt Berggren wrote on Fri, 17 February 2017 22:46 ... and we are doing much more than simply 'changing the licensing' with EAGLE. Yes, the Eagle executable isn't linked static to the (Qt) libraries anymore causing a bunch of crashes and instabilities. Thank you for that. Matt Berggren wrote on Fri, 17 February 2017 22:46 The features that are coming (obstacle avoidance in routing, better trace cleanup and alignment tools, push and shove & multitrack routing, bidirectional MCAD integration, better layer handling, improvements to libraries and component creation, etc.) will define the future of EAGLE far more than the licensing model. I highly doubt that. Also because you have proven to be unreliable and I don't believe your promises anymore. Fool me once, blame on you. Fool me twice, blame on me. Why can't we buy anymore licenses for V7? Because you are afraid that a (high) percentage of Eagle users will not switch to the new licensing model? And that for most Eagle users, V7 & V6 are good enough and are much more stable and will continue to work for many years? -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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CadSoft Guest Feb 18, 2017 3:22 AM (in response to Joop14) 174. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Am 18.02.2017 um 08:50 schrieb Joop: Matt Berggren wrote on Fri, 17 February 2017 22:46

We understand that for some percentage of users, the license changes were undesirable.

What percentage? 70%? 80%? 90%? So, you do understand but you are not willing to revert back to I think autodesk have calculated this risk before: "If we increase the average price/month about 500%, we can lose ~70% of the old users and we earn more money than with that old license model." This is a typical decision behavior of big companies. Short thinking with quarterly financial statements. The next step is: "If we lose more than 80% we kill this Eagle experiment." Maybe the over next step of the loyal old users is to start a crowdfounding project to buy eagle back from autdesk. Andreas

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geralds Feb 18, 2017 6:34 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 175. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Andreas, Yes, I've been thinking about this calculation. But the time is over. One thing that can be - young people because they do not know how strong the old have fought for an optimal tool. The young people can be talked a lot, they have no negotiating power "you can do that, you can do that too ..."; But in reality the already ancient functions that have been known since the 1980s. What AutoDesk sells here as "new", has long been installed with other tools as standard. Gerald ---

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Joop14 Feb 19, 2017 3:52 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 176. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/ It was just a matter of time... -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca

:: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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rachaelp Feb 19, 2017 9:59 AM (in response to Joop14) 177. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Joop14 wrote: http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/ It was just a matter of time... -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets. I have to think that not many EAGLE users would be in a position to take up that offer. Even with the 40% off its going to be over $5000 and that only comes with one year of support and updates. After the first year you'd need to pay another $1500/year for a maintenance contract for support and updates. If you don't keep up on maintenance payments you'd likely be stung for back payments if you ever did need to update so realistically, most professional users are going to want to take that option rather than risk getting stuck with a problem and having to find a lot of money to get back onto maintenance in a hurry. The people who will go for this would be those who were considering it anyway because they regularly do high end boards and the additional features of Altium would be a benefit but the full price was too much for them to swallow. For the majority of smaller companies the cost of Altium and the ongoing support cost is still likely too much. Yes Altium has some really nice features but EAGLE's really easy to use and can do moderately complex boards quickly and easy enough such that the step up to Altium isn't justified by the cost. If EAGLE adds better routing features then this need even for high end boards may be reduced. So for the $500/year for an EAGLE Premium subscription, I could buy this for at least 10 years for the equivalent of the promotional price of Altium and for that I get 10 years of support. If I factor in the cost of maintenance I could have 4 EAGLE seats for the same price as 1 Altium seat in that 10 year period. Now, I know there is an issue with no perpetual license but in one of Matt Berggrens posts he stated that they would give an equivalent v7 license to fall back on with v8 subscriptions and a promise to ensure that a design could always be saved in a completely v7 compliant format so we then have a way to use EAGLE perpetually (See here: https://www.element14.com/community/thread/58485/l/eagle-license-recommendat-ion) Best Regards, Rachael

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CadSoft Guest Feb 19, 2017 10:22 AM (in response to Joop14) 178. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Am 19.02.2017 um 10:50 schrieb Joop: http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/ Great news, thanks for sharing! Rene

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CadSoft Guest Feb 19, 2017 10:27 AM (in response to rachaelp) 179. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Am 19.02.2017 um 16:56 schrieb rachaelp: ... but in one of Matt Berggrens posts he stated that they would give an equivalent v7 license to fall back on with v8 subscriptions and a promise to ensure that a design could always be saved in a completely v7 compliant format so we then have a way to use EAGLE perpetually A promise? Worth nothing. Rene

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e14candies Feb 19, 2017 10:57 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 180. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

The issue here is NOT the price that Altium charges, but the facts that: Autodesk blindly and arrogantly refuses to listen to its long term, loyal customers regarding Eagle subscriptions. Autodesk delivers a poor muddling of "enhancements" and refuses to offer any viable roadmap or timeline of when requested features will be available. Because of these repeated and continuing disappointments by Autodesk in supporting customers, competitors like Altium will attempt to make their move. -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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Joop14 Feb 19, 2017 12:17 PM (in response to rachaelp) 181. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

rachaelp wrote on Sun, 19 February 2017 16:56 ... but in one of Matt Berggrens posts he stated that they would give an equivalent v7 license to fall back on with v8 subscriptions and a promise to ensure that a design could always be saved in a completely v7 compliant format... Matt Berggrens also wrote that Eagle should not go subscription... technolomaniac wrote on Thu, 7 July 2016 02:01 @Dave, it's not going subscription. So there. At this stage, that isn't anywhere on my roadmap. Thought about it. Decided against it. Can I say that we will never in the life of any product do that? No, of course not. http://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/autodesk-buys-eagle/msg977529/#msg977529 -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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Joop14 Feb 19, 2017 12:17 PM (in response to rachaelp) 182. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

rachaelp wrote on Sun, 19 February 2017 16:56 ... but in one of Matt Berggrens posts he stated that they would give an equivalent v7 license to fall back on with v8 subscriptions and a promise to ensure that a design could always be saved in a completely v7 compliant format... Matt Berggrens also wrote that Eagle should not go subscription... technolomaniac wrote on Thu, 7 July 2016 02:01 @Dave, it's not going subscription. So there. At this stage, that isn't anywhere on my roadmap. Thought about it. Decided against it. Can I say that we will never in the life of any product do that? No, of course not. http://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/autodesk-buys-eagle/msg977529/#msg977529 -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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drkirkby Feb 19, 2017 1:00 PM (in response to rachaelp) 183. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

rachaelp wrote: I have to think that not many EAGLE users would be in a position to take up that offer. Even with the 40% off its going to be over $5000 and that only comes with one year of support and updates. Best Regards, Rachael Since the special price is only for Eagle users, I wonder how Altrium are going to verify if someone has a valid Eagle license? Eagle users moving to KiCad seems a much more likely move, as Eagle and Altrium are aimed at different markets. My accountant suggested some time ago that I used KashFlow https://www.kashflow.com/ for my company accounts. KashFlow is online based, so you only have access when their servers are working, and whilst they support the product. You don't install any software on the PC. Basically, you can are stuffed if KashFlow goes belly up. I would not use software like that. I would not mind paying a monthly fee for access to a game, but PCB software or accounts software are definitely not something I would consider renting. My accountant also suggested another package (I forget which), which just runs on a PC. In the end we agreed to use GnuCash https://www.gnucash.org/ which is free and open-source. Dave

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CadSoft Guest Feb 19, 2017 3:42 PM (in response to Joop14) 184. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 19.02.2017 10:50, Joop wrote: http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/altium-designer/ It was just a matter of time... Well the market provides what the customer demands... If not from Autodesk then from someone else...

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sauerwald Feb 19, 2017 11:14 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 185. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I use both Altium and Eagle, professionally, and both have advantages and disadvantages. I'll continue to use my perpetual license for Eagle 7, and when that no longer works for me I will re-evaluate. Altium not an option for hobbyists. With what it costs for a perpetual license from Altium, you could pay for 20 years of subscription fees to Eagle.

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geralds Feb 20, 2017 1:24 AM (in response to sauerwald) 186. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi, not the price is the problem. The problem is that after expiring the license period the license quality will falling back to the free version. The free version has 80cm² with two layers, the standard version has 160cm² with 4 layers (since V8.0.1), the premium version has unlimited dimension with 16 layers. So you can select between free version, or free version after one year, or free version after one month if you have a monthly subscription. That's the problem. That's the game of Kiddy Kit Cats, the Eagle will be a toy. Gerald ---

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rachaelp Feb 20, 2017 1:45 AM (in response to geralds) 187. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Gerald, Gerald Schwarz wrote: The problem is that after expiring the license period the license quality will falling back to the free version. Yes this will happen with the v8 version when the license expires but you can always go back to v6/v7. In another thread (here: https://www.element14.com/community/thread/58485/l/eagle-license-recommendat-ion) it is stated that there is the intention given to provide equivalent legacy v7 licenses with an EAGLE v8 subscription and ensure v8 can export a v7 compatible file. The exact details of what subscription term earns a v7 license isn't given and nothing has been mentioned on this outside of this one post but if this happens then it's workable as v7 is still capable, it just won't have the latest v8 routing features available. Here is a copy of the pertinent section from that post: Matt Berggren wrote: 8) We will continue to make all legacy and new versions available for download. 9) We will provide you a license of an earlier, Cadsoft version of EAGLE with the purchase of subscription (this is as-is, with no support implied...it will match your current tier...some work to make sure we get this right just yet, but it's coming). 10). We'll look to build an exporter to the legacy version 6 format and ensure, for the first time, backwards compatibility. I know it's not as good as the option to have a perpetual v8 license but I don't think they are going to change their minds on this and for me being able to fall back to v7 is workable. Best Regards, Rachael

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rachaelp Feb 20, 2017 2:01 AM (in response to drkirkby) 188. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi David, David Kirkby wrote: Since the special price is only for Eagle users, I wonder how Altrium are going to verify if someone has a valid Eagle license? Eagle users moving to KiCad seems a much more likely move, as Eagle and Altrium are aimed at different markets. That's a good question. Maybe you'd need to provide proof of purchase? I suspect only a few of the professional users doing the most high end boards and pushing the limits of EAGLE would take up this offer. Certainly for most, especially the hobbiest / maker people who aren't using EAGLE commercially, going to KiCAD is the likely path and not Altium Designer. I did see that Altium have also just published a discount on Circuit Studio for existing EAGLE customers too.... Personally I am sticking with EAGLE. I have a v7 license to fall back on anyway but I'm not worrying about the longevity of EAGLE under Autodesk at this point and at the Premium annual subscription level, assuming I would have updated every couple of years under the old system it isn't going to cost me any more really. I can see at the low end, losing the much cheaper non-commercial Maker license does make EAGLE a lot more expensive for people who previously had this license. Hopefully this is something that Autodesk will look at and address. I do also think they would stop some more of the bleeding of existing users if there was a level between Standard and Premium as the restrictions on Standard are still quite restrictive in terms of board area and the cost jump between the two is quite large. David Kirkby wrote: My accountant suggested some time ago that I used KashFlow https://www.kashflow.com/ for my company accounts. KashFlow is online based, so you only have access when their servers are working, and whilst they support the product. You don't install any software on the PC. Basically, you can are stuffed if KashFlow goes belly up. I would not use software like that. I would not mind paying a monthly fee for access to a game, but PCB software or accounts software are definitely not something I would consider renting. Using something completely cloud based for something as fundamentally important to your business as your company accounts is totally idiotic. I hope you suitable chastised your accountant when they suggested it.... I don't see EAGLE v8 really falls into this category though as you don't store your data in the cloud and it's always readable even with a v8 freeware license it's just not editable. Combine this with being able to export to v7 (if the file format actually changes as currently they are the same) and I don't see there being a huge risk of losing access to my data. Best Regards, Rachael

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CadSoft Guest Feb 20, 2017 2:17 AM (in response to geralds) 189. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Gerald Schwarz schrieb: Hi, not the price is the problem. 100% ACK! The problem is that after expiring the license period the license quality will falling back to the free version. The free version has 80cm² with two layers, the standard version has 160cm² with 4 layers (since V8.0.1), the premium version has unlimited dimension with 16 layers. So you can select between free version, or free version after one year, or free version after one month if you have a monthly subscription. That's the problem. 100% ACK! Andreas

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Joop14 Feb 20, 2017 5:52 AM (in response to rachaelp) 190. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

rachaelp wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 09:01 I don't see EAGLE v8 really falls into this category though as you don't store your data in the cloud and it's always readable even with a v8 freeware license it's just not editable. Combine this with being able to export to v7 (if the file format actually changes as currently they are the same) and I don't see there being a huge risk of losing access to my data. Makes no difference. Your locally stored data is completely useless (from a business point of view) when you can't edit or modify an 8 layer board. -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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rachaelp Feb 20, 2017 6:02 AM (in response to Joop14) 191. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Joop_ wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 11:50 rachaelp wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 09:01

I don't see EAGLE v8 really falls into this category though as you don't store your data in the cloud and it's always readable even with a v8 freeware license it's just not editable. Combine this with being able to export to v7 (if the file format actually changes as currently they are the same) and I don't see there being a huge risk of losing access to my data.

Makes no difference. Your locally stored data is completely useless (from a business point of view) when you can't edit or modify an 8 layer board. But you will be able to, in a perpetual licensed v7 version. Currently v8 files open fine in v7 and they're going to implement an exporter to v7 so if this ceases to be the case the freeware version will be able to open it and allow export to v7. Assuming (yep I can see the million replies to this already) they give the v7 license entitlement for v8 subscriptions as indicated by Matt in another post then this shouldn't cause any issues. -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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CadSoft Guest Feb 20, 2017 6:42 AM (in response to rachaelp) 192. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 20.02.2017 13:00, Rachael wrote: ... Currently v8 files open fine in v7 and they're going to implement an exporter to v7 so if this ceases to be the case the freeware version will be able to open it and allow export to v7. This will break as soon as they implement any new objects or properties in a later version. Anything that V7 doesn't know of, it can't handle. Klaus

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rachaelp Feb 20, 2017 6:57 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 193. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Klaus Schmidinger wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 12:40 On 20.02.2017 13:00, Rachael wrote:

... Currently v8 files open fine in v7 and they're going to implement an exporter to v7 so if this ceases to be the case the freeware version will be able to open it and allow export to v7.

This will break as soon as they implement any new objects or properties in a later version. Anything that V7 doesn't know of, it can't handle. Klaus Yes agreed it would likely break v7 if trying to open a v8 file with new objects, but this is mitigated by the export to v7 option they have said they will provide. Maybe instead they could release a v7.8 with an enhanced import feature which could download v8 file personalities so that it can always open up a v8 file directly rather than relying on an export? I don't know, I'm not giving up on EAGLE as for me the new issues with licensing can be worked around such that the potential implications aren't more severe than having to throw away years of experience, libraries, utilities etc. Others clearly have a differing view but I think switching to something else is more risk than any perceived future risk with the licensing issue, it is for me at least for now. Best Regards, Rachael -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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geralds Feb 20, 2017 7:00 AM (in response to rachaelp) 194. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Rachael, sorry, no, absolutely no. I d not like go back if i have reached the top quality. That's negative logical. rachaelp wrote: Hi Gerald, Gerald Schwarz wrote: The problem is that after expiring the license period the license quality will falling back to the free version. Yes this will happen with the v8 version when the license expires but you can always go back to v6/v7. One question: are you an employee in AutoDesk because you argument this? Because i have read this so... "three times" also in other forums. I cannot go backwards. Minimum that the "file backwards compatibility" not really works. I don't believe that, absolutely not. Sorry for this question. V7 would not have the functions that then V8 will have. Also software functions will be not compatible. And most important, i pay for the V8 and then?... Sorry, with this argument I fall a little bit into angry. Paying double, tripple..??? sorry, grrrrrr...... Matt Berggren wrote: .... 10). We'll look to build an exporter to the legacy version 6 format and ensure, for the first time, backwards compatibility. --- I know it's not as good as the option to have a perpetual v8 license but I don't think they are going to change their minds on this and for me being able to fall back to v7 is workable. Best Regards, Gerald ---

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rachaelp Feb 20, 2017 7:18 AM (in response to geralds) 195. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Gerald, Gerald Schwarz wrote: One question: are you an employee in AutoDesk because you argument this? Because i have read this so... "three times" also in other forums. No. I am NOT an Autodesk employee, just an EAGLE user like you. I'm not 100% happy with the subscription model but I can live with it and I have no real choice anyway. For me I don't think it costs any more and I can mitigate the issues of not being able to edit designs if I were to go to v8 and then end my subscription as it should be possible fall back to v7 and make any edits there. Yes you wouldn't have the latest router but you'd still have all the capabilities of v7 so for most changes this would be just fine. If you aren't happy with the v8 licensing model then just stick with v7, it is perpetual and quite a capable tool and sticking with it is far easier than migrating to something else if it is currently working ok for you. There are still people working happily on v4/v5 licenses after all! As I have said in may other threads, whilst this licensing change with no perpetual option isn't ideal, for me it's less of an issue than throwing out everything I currently have and starting again from scratch with a new toolset and creating new libraries, methods of working etc.... etc.... etc.... I'm willing to wait an see what happens. Hopefully they may give more concessions on the licensing (maybe this is just wishful thinking?), lets see what the new router brings and what other features are coming and judge how things are in 6-12 months time when we've had a chance to see how EAGLE develops. This is my view anyway. I may be being overly optimistic that things will turn out alright in the end but I'm prepared to wait and see. Best Regards, Rachael

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Jan Cumps Feb 20, 2017 7:54 AM (in response to rachaelp) 196. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

And that 'll be very likely what most professional licencees will do. Any retraining/retooling is more expensive (be it hours or money) than the license hit.

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CadSoft Guest Feb 20, 2017 8:12 AM (in response to rachaelp) 197. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Rachel, you're paying your fee right now in the hope, that there's something worth it in 6..12 month. What if not? Yes, I too created a ton of parts in the past 20 years. This is why I'm still using EAGLE, and my license is still valid. However, I'm not going to ride that dead horse until the universe collapses. Also, I can't see why re-creating libraries is such a big problem. Yes, it definitely causes a lot additional work. But you're creating the parts as you need them, as you did in the past, one after each other and not all at once. Then, you don't have to create all the parts a second time. Or do you still use parts added, say, 15 years ago in new designs? Fortunately, we have all the time we need to evaluate and familiarize in different packages. Rene

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rachaelp Feb 20, 2017 8:52 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 198. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

rk wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 14:11 Hi Rachel, you're paying your fee right now in the hope, that there's something worth it in 6..12 month. What if not? Nope, I'm not upgrading to v8 until I have seen the stability issues that they introduced completely fixed and I have evaluated the new router (in the freeware version) to ensure it works well. Until then I have my v7 Pro license which I am happy with. rk wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 14:11 Yes, I too created a ton of parts in the past 20 years. This is why I'm still using EAGLE, and my license is still valid. However, I'm not going to ride that dead horse until the universe collapses. No, neither am I, if we don't get the stability back and we don't start to see really impressive new features then I will be disappointed and will re-evaluate my design tools at this point. But I am happy with v7 for now and could carry on for quite a while with that if needed so I am going to wait and see. rk wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 14:11 Also, I can't see why re-creating libraries is such a big problem. Yes, it definitely causes a lot additional work. But you're creating the parts as you need them, as you did in the past, one after each other and not all at once. Then, you don't have to create all the parts a second time. Or do you still use parts added, say, 15 years ago in new designs? It's rare to use a part from 15 years ago but occasionally it's needed if you have to go back to something legacy. Creating parts is always a lot quicker when you have an existing parts library to base things upon. There's much more chance you already have the footprint available and often there will be a similar part to adapt your symbol(s) for a new part from and if you are reusing proven library data then less chance of errors being introduced. Starting completely from scratch is definitely a lot more work and factoring in how much an hour of your time costs to your company then recreating libraries, tools, processes, etc from scratch can add up quickly and dwarf the cost of buying a different toolset. rk wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 14:11 Fortunately, we have all the time we need to evaluate and familiarize in different packages. Rene Agreed, there's time to see how things pan out. I'm optimistic things will work out ok in the end Best Regards, Rachael -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca

:: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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CadSoft Guest Feb 20, 2017 8:52 AM (in response to rachaelp) 199. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 20.02.2017 13:54, Rachael wrote: ... Yes agreed it would likely break v7 if trying to open a v8 file with new objects, but this is mitigated by the export to v7 option they have said they will provide. The XML file structure of V7 represents everything that the V7 executable can handle. Once a later version introduces new stuff in the XML data, there is no way V7 could possibly understand and handle that - not even if they provide an "export to V7 option". There would always be something missing or misinterpreted. Unless, of course, there's some sort of wizardry involved... ;-). Klaus

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rachaelp Feb 20, 2017 9:02 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 200. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Klaus Schmidinger wrote on Mon, 20 February 2017 14:49 On 20.02.2017 13:54, Rachael wrote:

... Yes agreed it would likely break v7 if trying to open a v8 file with new objects, but this is mitigated by the export to v7 option they have said they will provide.

The XML file structure of V7 represents everything that the V7 executable can handle. Once a later version introduces new stuff in the XML data, there is no way V7 could possibly understand and handle that - not even if they provide an "export to V7 option". There would always be something missing or misinterpreted. Unless, of course, there's some sort of wizardry involved... ;). Klaus Clearly any export to v7 would have to omit or recreate in a compatible way anything that v7 wouldn't natively understand.... I think the idea being that v7 contains all the features necessary to accurately render a board. Any new objects in the v8 file would be likely related to the new features required for designing the PCB but not for rendering it in a form which can then be subsequently edited by v7. Best Regards, Rachael -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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technolomaniac Feb 20, 2017 3:42 PM (in response to rachaelp) 201. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

@Klaus, et. Al - You're correct, we need to handle any new objects in the export process which, as you'd expect in any CAD system, will mean some loss in fidelity. I can recall vividly supporting the old PDIF format from Master Designer & Tango (now you get a sense for how old I am...dang!) when we built and released later versions of Accel / PCAD (I see eagle still has a PDIF import ULP which made me smile a bit!). We had both import and export. Same was true after Protel acquired us and we had to support both legacy PCAD and legacy Protel in the Altium-era (ASCII altium is still a legacy format, Protel v6 from what I recall). Moving forward, a better parser would be smart enough to omit those elements that it doesn't understand in the XML so you dont need to export the data. This is a pretty high priority item because forward backward compatibility will give users confidence that they aren't "trapped" in a specific version. The move to XML was a wise one as it gives us a lot more flexibility with this process than using a stream writer class, encoding things in bitfields. This process is underway but it will take some time to implement. It'll happen this year though I suppose. Going back to version 7 is as far back as we want to go because as hierarchy becomes more "complete" we dont want to have to flatten everything out and it could get far more risky. The trick with any of this is then also maintaining syncing. So whatever we do to one editor has to be considered in how we deal with the other. This is par for the course but something to keep our eye(s) on. Future releases, we'll update the parser so if some new item is introduced, it just opens the file and omits that item or throws a warning and reverts to a legacy item. For example, if we added a new "board" object built from complex polys instead of lines and arcs, we need to decide what to do if you want to open this in an older version. That's one area where we need to be careful and deliberate in our implementation. Hope this is clear. We are thinking about this for sure. Any feedback (or any insights from the Cadsoft legend!) would be hugely valuable! Best regards, Matt - Autodesk.

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rbtx99 Feb 20, 2017 4:06 PM (in response to rachaelp) 202. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

A promise from Autodesk to support future export compatibility with v7 worth as much as their promise to keep the perpetual license.

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geralds Feb 20, 2017 5:56 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 203. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Matt Berggren wrote: @Klaus, et. Al - You're correct, we need to handle any new objects in the export process which, as you'd expect in any CAD system, will mean some loss in fidelity. I can recall vividly supporting the old PDIF format from Master Designer & Tango (now you get a sense for how old I am...dang!) when we built and released later versions of Accel / PCAD (I see eagle still has a PDIF import ULP which made me smile a bit!). We had both import and export. Same was true after Protel acquired us and we had to support both legacy PCAD and legacy Protel in the Altium-era (ASCII altium is still a legacy format, Protel v6 from what I recall). Hi Matt, Congratulations! Now.... we make a small step forward. At that time, pre Altium, with PCAD 4.5 (1985); 5.0 (1986,..,87); .... 8..8.5 ( first program for Windows; 1988...2000; after that i used PCAD 2001, 2002) that was the theater that the files in binary wasn't compatible to each versions. (now you can sense how old i am... ) Only with the interface export/import in ASCII format (every time we jumped across in the shell) was able to convert to the newer software version. But, that was the point, all wires was fixed as wire, absolut stabil. They didn't merged with lines (drawing lines). This was it what i loved against some other tools, e.g. from cadence. The second software that have a stabil wire connection is Eagle and this have its famous price: cheap and easy to use. But now the quality was lost. The quality can be bring back if the price categories also the license policy be actualized to the today's standards. What i suggest is: 1) Free version 160cm² (Eurocard) with two layers. 2) Standard version DIN A4 format, because most printer (e.g. laser printer) can print out the layouts in this format, with all layers (16). 3) Premium format as we have, 16m² 16 layers, or if you like, 32 layers or such as Altium Designer. 4) The license quality does NOT falling back to the free version, it must staying at the last state of its paid category. Then in the future, what you want to do with your promise. With this I'm sure, absolutely, you can hold all your customers. -> Ähm,,,, "wire" "lines" -- in an forum I've read the wires will be lines, also in ULP. hm.... i think that would be not so good. This problem was often - the user drawn lines but he wanted wires. And if the colors are the same then they have problems with interpreting, what is connected wire or what is a graphical line. Most users are eyes orientated, so they drawing what they can see, not what they can program. I suggest, keep it by strict separating. Best Regards, Gerald ---

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Ed Robledo Feb 21, 2017 12:38 PM (in response to geralds) 204. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

HI, As in any new project, the first big step is to revamp the engine. And that is what Autodesk is diligently working on, setting up the foundation for the aggressive roadmap they have traced for EAGLE. In this latest version, they have added more features compared to the latest 2 major releases, please remember that the acquisition was like 6 months ago. Its obvious that many don't agree with subscription, but with the same breath the community and users ask or almost demand new features. Without raising up-front the price, how else will this be done? Making EAGLE affordable is paramount, but continued implementation to the software is just as important as the engineering of PCB design is continuously evolving. Earlier attempts of adding an aggressive licensing failed, I am really glad it did because users wouldn't be getting nothing in return for this non sense. With this new model, you will get continued significant updates. Exporting EAGLE files to an earlier versions will be a bit tedious but it doesn't seem impossible, many application contain a "Save As" or "Export to" for legacy systems. I'm not trying to convince anyone one way or another, that is a personal decision, I just think Autodesk has done a lot in a very short time, and ask the community for some patience, you will be pleasantly surprised. Best Regards, Ed

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drkirkby Feb 21, 2017 1:18 PM (in response to Ed Robledo) 205. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Ed Robledo wrote: . Exporting EAGLE files to an earlier versions will be a bit tedious but it doesn't seem impossible, many application contain a "Save As" or "Export to" for legacy systems. Best Regards, Ed My experience is that this might work for a release or two, but as time goes on, the export will be less reliable.

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Joop14 Feb 21, 2017 1:27 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 206. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

The only thing that autodesk has achieved so far with version 8.0 and 8.1, are instabilities, crashes and a couple of buggy additions (bga escape routing). It shows that the priorities of the software team has changed i.e. testing has become less important. Autodesk also shows that is doen't really care about what the customer want. I want to buy a license for V7 but autodesk don't let me because they know that people who already have a license for V7, will not "upgrade" to V8 and their subscription. So much for their confidence in their new product... -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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brentbolton Feb 21, 2017 2:55 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 207. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Matt, Forgotten in this discussion about license models is the perspective that we as users have put a lot of effort into developing expertise using EagleCAD. And for many of us, our livelihood is dependent on that expertise. With your subscription model you have, in effect, take that expertise hostage, I .e. pay up or your knowledge is now worthless. To me, this represents a breach of trust between Autodesk and the EagleCAD user community and indicates a company that is more concerned with itself than with its customers. I went through this once before when OrCAD was purchased by Cadence and so I am perhaps hyper-sensitized. I used EagleCAD precisely because it was not a product of a big faceless CAD vendor that could care less about my tiny contribution to their bottom line. My inclination now is to cut my losses and go with an open source package like KiCAD so that I never have to go through this again. Whatever I do, rest assured that unless Autodesk changes course and offers an affordable perpetual license option my days of using EagleCAD are numbered. Sincerely, Brent Bolton

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CadSoft Guest Feb 21, 2017 2:57 PM (in response to rbtx99) 208. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On Fri, 17 Feb 2017 11:37:44 GMT, rbtx99 < [email protected]> wrote: Have you guys at Autodesk noticed that Sparkfun and Adafruit moved to KiCad? You can pretty much kiss the hobby and Arduino markets goodbye. WOOT!!!! John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address

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geralds Feb 21, 2017 3:00 PM (in response to Ed Robledo) 209. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Ed, please, once more, as i said: Re: Eagle v8 licensing... NOT THE PRICE IS THE PROBLEM. The problem is that the license QUALITY will falling back to the toy version after expiring the license period. Customers are really punished with this action. In no other (nearly / - small companies that grabbing money) company I know such this action. This is as if you have a car fully equipped, then suddenly all 4 wheels AND the steering wheel takes away, steals away. In this way, the paid full license is stolen away. That's the clearly argument in this business with AutoDesk. All other is lobbyism. One person talks about this, another about that, but not all together in confirmation. So because of that yesterday i suggested the 4 points. ! Most important: the license keeps in the last state of the paid category, and for the standard dimension a DIN A4 format with 16 layers . -> what will i do, if i go in holidays for more than 14, or 31 days....., after then i switch on the software for an active or new project..., and then the license will say "sorry...". My customers will also say "sorry...". I know 100%, since many years that AutoDesk makes highest quality software; please also with Eagle too. Autodesk EAGLE -> here in that list is missing something, -> Standard version Best Regards, Gerald ---

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Ed Robledo Feb 21, 2017 3:20 PM (in response to Joop14) 210. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Joop14 wrote: The only thing that autodesk has achieved so far with version 8.0 and 8.1, are instabilities, crashes and a couple of buggy additions (bga escape routing). It shows that the priorities of the software team has changed i.e. testing has become less important. Autodesk also shows that is doen't really care about what the customer want. It is no uncommon for a brand new major release to have a some incidents or issues. The difference is how fast does the developing team make the changes to solve it. Autodesk did prove this when releasing an update to 8.0.1 which solved the majority of issues in less than 2 weeks. The latest implementation were based on improvements being requested by the users, there is no foundation indicating Autodesk doesn't care about the customer. The customers are the sole driving force to the improvements to EAGLE. Some of these 'wants' take time to be done right, that's the reason they were not done in the first place. Best Regards, Ed

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albertovignati Feb 21, 2017 3:29 PM (in response to Ed Robledo) 211. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Il 21/02/2017 22:20, techsupport ha scritto: The customers are the sole driving force to the improvements to EAGLE. Some of these 'wants' take time to be done right, that's the reason they were not done in the first place. Good! Said that, please, fix the license! Best regards Alberto

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rachaelp Feb 21, 2017 3:31 PM (in response to geralds) 212. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Gerald, Not wishing to be mistaken for an Autodesk employee again as I am not, but I will comment again anyway. Gerald Schwarz wrote: The problem is that the license QUALITY will falling back to the toy version after expiring the license period. Customers are really punished with this action. Why is this a problem? If you need to use it you renew your subscription. If you don't need to use it then you don't pay until you do. Gerald Schwarz wrote: ! Most important: the license keeps in the last state of the paid category, and for the standard dimension a DIN A4 format with 16 layers . With your suggestion somebody could pay $65 for a one month Premium subscription and then cancel and they would be able to use that Premium version forever. That's not financially viable for Autodesk (or any other company) to do a tool like this with that licensing model. Taking this further, your suggestion of DIN A4 format and 16 layer for $10/month would pretty much wipe out all sales on Premium as those restrictions would probably cover the majority of users design requirements so they wouldn't need the Premium level. I'd love this amount in Standard but I think this is exceedingly unlikely! Gerald Schwarz wrote: -> what will i do, if i go in holidays for more than 14, or 31 days....., after then i switch on the software for an active or new project..., and then the license will say "sorry...". My customers will also say "sorry...". When you switch on your software it contacts the Autodesk servers and your software starts up and works again. They don't take it away and confiscate your subscription if your computer doesn't contact them The only issue is if you don't have internet access. This could be solved by Autodesk making the call home period equal to the license period, so if you had a three year subscription it would continue to work for three years before dialling home. It would still have to dial home for activating any updates but making the call home match the license period would remove a lot of concerns of people in remote or internet starved places. Sorry if you think I am sticking up for Autodesk too much, I can understand peoples grievances with the licensing change, especially as Farnell tried to do this too (but in my opinion much worse and they implemented the dreaded flexlm licensing!), but quite frankly some peoples demands are going far beyond reasonable in the other direction. I think with a few more relatively benign tweaks to the licensing that I have mentioned in several threads over the last couple of days the majority of the issues could be resolved. I'm sure Autodesk are reading these suggestions, we'll just have to see if they come up with any additional concessions. At the end of the day v7 is still a good product and I have that license so if v8 doesn't pan out for whatever reason I will fall back to that until I need capabilities beyond what it can give. I don't see the need for throwing tantrums on forums and ditching all of my existing setup because of a licensing change that won't cost me any more money. The people most negatively affected at the moment are people who previously had the non-commercial Maker license, that currently has no viable alternative so they have a legitimate reason to be disappointed as they have no equivalent path to v8. Best Regards, Rachael 1 of 2 people found this helpful Actions

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Ed Robledo Feb 21, 2017 3:54 PM (in response to albertovignati) 213. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

The customers are the sole driving force to the improvements to EAGLE. Some of these 'wants' take time to be done right, that's the reason they were not done in the first place. Good! Said that, please, fix the license! The license isn't broken, nothing to fix there. The majority of users prefer a better designing experience and that's what the team will continue doing. Best Regards, Ed

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CadSoft Guest Feb 21, 2017 4:42 PM (in response to rachaelp) 214. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

rachaelp wrote on Tue, 21 February 2017 14:31 The people most negatively affected at the moment are people who previously had the non-commercial Maker license, that currently has no viable alternative so they have a legitimate reason to be disappointed as they have no equivalent path to v8. I own a perpetual license of EAGLE, schematic, board and autorouter. I think you and I are both waiting for some period of time to see if there is any reason that we should consider a subscription. During that time, Autodesk might or might not create something wonderful that we have to have. We'll see. I'm from the small business/DIY/hobby world and I'm a programmer by trade. I understand that Autodesk needs to make money from EAGLE and make it fit in with the rest of their product line. On one hand, I hope that EAGLE grows into the full-fledged product that it might be. On the other, I am now in a period of mourning because the old EAGLE and the community that surrounded it has been fractured and is probably gone forever. Yes, EAGLE itself is still as functional as it has ever been. Yes, the subscription pricing is probably reasonable. But for me, and I think for others, buying a copy of EAGLE (even though it's effectively only a license to use the software) gave us a sense of ownership, of buy-in to a pretty cool club. Autodesk is too big to ever be that. (Not their fault.) That old club has been disbanded. EAGLE is now just another tool from a big corporation. Some day Jorge and Ed won't be the main support team any more and the transition will be complete. Yes, it's mainly emotions, but the people I used to share tips, tricks, scripts, and designs with are all angry and looking to switch to other products. Like seeing an ex on the street, every time I start EAGLE, it reminds me of the way things used to be and that things are different now. This too shall pass... -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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drkirkby Feb 21, 2017 4:49 PM (in response to Ed Robledo) 215. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Ed Robledo wrote: The license isn't broken, nothing to fix there. The majority of users prefer a better designing experience and that's what the team will continue doing. Best Regards, Ed I would be interesting to see if you can create a genuinely useful enhancement for Eagle, that will get as much reaction around the world as the licensing change has. I first heard about it on the time-nuts mailing list * Time-nuts https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]&q=subject:%22Re\%3A+\[time\-nuts\]+OT\%3A+Eagle+PC+CAD+now+Auto… * Hackaday Autodesk Moves EAGLE to Subscription Only Pricing | Hackaday * Kicad https://forum.kicad.info/t/autodesk-kills-the-golden-eagle/4964 * Altium Switch from Eagle PCB Would incorporating a full 3D EM solver, create as much interest on so many forums? I suspect not. There does not appear to be any fall in the Autodesk share price - in fact, it is almost as high as it has ever been. So I guess shareholders are not objecting. Dave

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rbtx99 Feb 21, 2017 5:01 PM (in response to brentbolton) 216. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Forgotten in this discussion about license models is the perspective that we as users have put a lot of effort into developing expertise using EagleCAD. And for many of us, our livelihood is dependent on that expertise. With your subscription model you have, in effect, take that expertise hostage, Exactly. If EAGLE 8 was totally free but needed to connect every two weeks to activate I would still not use it. If Autodesk paid me $500 a year... I would still not use it. If they ever realise that they may have a successful business. As for the effort on developing expertise... it is not a big deal as one may think. I was hesitant changing to another brand of microcomputers and it was a few months of pain to get back to speed but now it is all past me and I look back and I blame myself for not doing it sooner. Jumping ship from EAGLE for me is now certainty. The only question is what to jump to that is best for my needs.

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rachaelp Feb 22, 2017 1:47 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 217. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Doug Wellington wrote on Tue, 21 February 2017 22:37 rachaelp wrote on Tue, 21 February 2017 14:31

The people most negatively affected at the moment are people who previously had the non-commercial Maker license, that currently has no viable alternative so they have a legitimate reason to be disappointed as they have no equivalent path to v8.

I own a perpetual license of EAGLE, schematic, board and autorouter. I think you and I are both waiting for some period of time to see if there is any reason that we should consider a subscription. During that time, Autodesk might or might not create something wonderful that we have to have. We'll see. I'm from the small business/DIY/hobby world and I'm a programmer by trade. I understand that Autodesk needs to make money from EAGLE and make it fit in with the rest of their product line. On one hand, I hope that EAGLE grows into the full-fledged product that it might be. On the other, I am now in a period of mourning because the old EAGLE and the community that surrounded it has been fractured and is probably gone forever. Yes, EAGLE itself is still as functional as it has ever been. Yes, the subscription pricing is probably reasonable. But for me, and I think for others, buying a copy of EAGLE (even though it's effectively only a license to use the software) gave us a sense of ownership, of buy-in to a pretty cool club. Autodesk is too big to ever be that. (Not their fault.) That old club has been disbanded. EAGLE is now just another tool from a big corporation. Some day Jorge and Ed won't be the main support team any more and the transition will be complete. Yes, it's mainly emotions, but the people I used to share tips, tricks, scripts, and designs with are all angry and looking to switch to other products. Like seeing an ex on the street, every time I start EAGLE, it reminds me of the way things used to be and that things are different now. This too shall pass... Hi Doug, Yes I agree with you, the worst thing for me is what this licensing change has done to the community. There is far less general chatter on these forums, I rarely see posts from some of the previous long time users anymore and I do find this very sad. We'll just have to see how things turn out I guess, I'm hoping once the dust settles some of the original long time members of these forums will start to visit again.... I hope so, their experience is valuable and their help was always appreciated.... I'm hoping Jorge, Ed and Richard (haven't seen him on here for a while!) will be around for the foreseeable future so it's not all change. I suspect any new tech support people will be on the Autodesk official forums rather than here though. Best Regards, Rachael -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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albertovignati Feb 22, 2017 3:22 AM (in response to Ed Robledo) 218. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Il 21/02/2017 22:54, Ed Robledo ha scritto: The customers are the sole driving force to the improvements to EAGLE. Some of these 'wants' take time to be done right, that's the reason they were not done in the first place. Good! Said that, please, fix the license!

The license isn't broken, nothing to fix there. The majority of users prefer a better designing experience and that's what the team will continue doing. Best Regards, Ed Mmmhhhh.... Is seems that 90% of posts in this formum are related to the licence model instead other topics, this means that: 1) The license is a concern; 2) Users (me too) are asking you to review the license model. I just said I am a long term user (schematiclayoutautorouter pro), I just said that I had planned to upgrade to V8, I just said that I dropped it due the new license model. In my decision schema your license model enters as a FALSE in a final logic AND, so the definitive decision is always FALSE: not upgrade! This despite the features you plan to add and also the price. Again, I can accept a yearly maintenance model, I can not accept a subscription model. Maybe the only valid reason that Autodesk understand is the revenue instead users requests like this... I am not in a hurry, so I can wait and evaluating alternatives for the next months, maybe an year, then, if nothing changes, I have to say goodbye and good luck. I am angry, very angry, because I invested time and efforts (libraries, ULPs and so on) and I will have to rebuild all in another tool. Eagle is not a new product build from scratch, there is a users, like me, base who have choosen it for the feature but also for the license: to buy an existing company/product and to change policies at this level is like to be an elephant and to enter in a glassware... It is legal, but it is also absolutely unfair. So, in my perspective, license is broken and makes the product unusable. Best regards Alberto 1 of 1 people found this helpful Actions

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geralds Feb 22, 2017 4:55 AM (in response to rachaelp) 219. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Rachael, sorry, but hoping (also hopping and dancing) and praying we can do it in the church. In business we have concrete facts. The fact is that, if Autodesk has a disaster in its territory, for example earthquake or internal political problems in the company, millions of users can also close their company or minimum their software. Then we all have the huge problem of fixing the billions of damage, with all sorts of court actions. If we both have a local problem, others are not affected. If other clients have their problems then we are both not affected by these local problems. This is the next big problem with such a kind of licensing policy. These are facts, not belief or hope. The license is broken! If the employee is terminated by the support, or is no longer available to us, what is the matter with a licensing policy for us? What do employees have with licenses? Are the licenses nailed on their trousers or shirts? These people are not Autodesk, though? How many servers does Autodesk have on the planet? We have been waiting four years for a serious and well-functioning software update. I have not V7 pro, but only V6.xx. pro, because the V7 is a scrap. So I wanted to skip V7 and I've always told Cadsoft, synonymous I have written this in the German and English forums. Now with Autodesk, the promised number 8 is here, but with the same weak uptrend. And come all the time with hopes and prayers .. I can do that in the church, not in the business market. You must be able to continue working if Autodesk does not update the software. Otherwise hell is going on, and all this on the whole planet. Just because Autodesk has a subscription philosophy ... well, this is a "hard tobacco" ... Should productivity remain stuck on a global scale? Best Regards, Gerald ---

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CadSoft Guest Feb 22, 2017 4:52 AM (in response to drkirkby) 220. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

David Kirkby wrote on Tue, 21 February 2017 15:49 Altium Switch from Eagle PCB (http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/circuitstudio/

)

I just found out that Circuit Studio maintenance costs $150 a year. With the current promotion, that makes it $5 cheaper than EAGLE Premium the first year, but then $350 cheaper than EAGLE every year after that. Even without the promotional pricing, the break-even point is just over two years. 32 layers, unlimited board size, perpetual license, cheaper than EAGLE. What's not to like? Quote: There does not appear to be any fall in the Autodesk share price - in fact, it is almost as high as it has ever been. So I guess shareholders are not objecting. Shareholders usually know nothing of the customer; many only look at the reports generated by a company itself... -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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geralds Feb 22, 2017 4:49 AM (in response to rachaelp) 221. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Rachael, i don't see problems with that. rachaelp wrote: Gerald Schwarz wrote: ! Most important: the license keeps in the last state of the paid category, and for the standard dimension a DIN A4 format with 16 layers . With your suggestion somebody could pay $65 for a one month Premium subscription and then cancel and they would be able to use that Premium version forever. That's not financially viable for Autodesk (or any other company) to do a tool like this with that licensing model. Taking this further, your suggestion of DIN A4 format and 16 layer for $10/month would pretty much wipe out all sales on Premium as those restrictions would probably cover the majority of users design requirements so they wouldn't need the Premium level. I'd love this amount in Standard but I think this is exceedingly unlikely! If he don't like more updates, well .... You can not press the customers with a "knife". But this license policy makes this. Well, the DIN A4 is more flexible to use. E. g.: Mostly I work on Eurocards 160x100 mm (3U) or double Eurocards 160x233,3mm (6U). Then a full backplane I can not create because it is bigger than A4. Yes, I will pay for a premium version. I will pay it as long as the project lasts, or even longer. But not if I never use it. Practically always I only work with up to double Euro cards. So why do I have to pay what I do not need forever? Creating a backplane is a rare project. Autodesk says "flexible" --- is this flexible what we just got? absolut no. Best Regards, Gerald ---

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Jan Cumps Feb 22, 2017 4:51 AM (in response to geralds) 222. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

So why do I have to pay what I do not need forever? Isn't this what the new license policy allowes you to do?

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geralds Feb 22, 2017 5:04 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 223. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Hi, Yes i calculated this too last month. Best Regards, Gerald --I just found out that Circuit Studio maintenance costs $150 a year. With the current promotion, that makes it $5 cheaper than EAGLE Premium the first year, but then $350 cheaper than EAGLE every year after that. Even without the promotional pricing, the break-even point is just over two years. 32 layers, unlimited board size, perpetual license, cheaper than EAGLE. What's not to like?

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rachaelp Feb 22, 2017 5:05 AM (in response to Jan Cumps) 224. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Jan Cumps wrote: So why do I have to pay what I do not need forever? Isn't this what the new license policy allowes you to do? Yes it is! When you don't need Premium, you drop down to Standard. If you are between projects and don't need to update boards for a few months because you are busy doing other things then you cancel your subscription, but you can still view, print, export your designs from the Freeware license. If you need to make an edit you pay up again.... If you take somebody on for a short term, say a few months so need an extra license just for that period, that's easy and you cancel it after they're done so you don't end up with another license you don't need. It all seems very flexible to me.... Having said that, I do think they should add a level between Standard and Premium. Maybe the DIN A4 size Gerald is referring to would be a good size to go for, although maybe not 16 layers. Actually, honestly how many times does 16 layers actually get used? I've done some seriously complex boards and not gone past 10 layers. The only board I have seen with more layers was a 20-layer backplane board in an Aerospace application....

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geralds Feb 22, 2017 5:09 AM (in response to Jan Cumps) 225. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Hi, Please do not tear from the context. Gerald --

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CadSoft Guest Feb 22, 2017 5:27 AM (in response to rachaelp) 226. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 22.02.2017 08:45, Rachael wrote: Hi Doug, Yes I agree with you, the worst thing for me is what this licensing change has done to the community. There is far less general chatter on these forums, I rarely see posts from some of the previous long time users anymore and I do find this very sad. We'll just have to see how things turn out I guess, I'm hoping once the dust settles some of the original long time members of these forums will start to visit again.... I hope so, their experience is valuable and their help was always appreciated.... I'm hoping Jorge, Ed and Richard (haven't seen him on here for a while!) will be around for the foreseeable future so it's not all change. I suspect any new tech support people will be on the Autodesk official forums rather than here though. Best Regards, Rachael Since I'm probably one of the long time users, and at least periodically visiting nearly every day, here is my status: (I find it very difficult to sort all my thoughts about this issue, so excuse me if it's a bit messy or repeating.) I am still reading the forums almost every day. The autodesk forum has a larger threshold to visit (nntp forums show in my already open email client), and as long as this forum is on nntp, I will keep reading. Opening a browser creates too much distubances being met with whatever banners there will be on whatever startpage you got. Posting new suggestions or answering questions has become less relevant, as I have not yet decided or found it worthwile to even evaluate v8. If there was no hassle or unknowns with creating an autodesk account or whatever surprises there will be, I probably would have jumped right onto it with exitement (hey, for all I know I already got an autodesk account, and I would have to find out what it was). I feel I kinda lost the mutual relationship with Eagle and I don't know how to act. I have had extremely good contact deep inside the experienced cadsoft development team through these channels. Pre 8, I have seen issues on 7.7 that I would like to suggest improvement for, but I am too confused to bother. Previously I have been suggesting improvement and posting bugs, and sometimes helped others, and my issues have mostly been taken care of in the next revision. I guess this would have continued with autodesk, if I just found a reason to jump in and opened the money flow. Regarding moving to v8. Now that I know I can postpone any expenses until I really need that offered new functionality, I can basically wait until they are all mature and really gives value for the money. At the same time, being as experienced as I am, I feel I should contribute to suggest the priorities and directions the new versions take. But I can not give relevant feedback until I play the game (and pay to play). Compared to the old days, testing new versions have become a threshold that I am reluctant to step into. The new licensing system is a bit scary territory with a lot of unknowns. Maybe it's just the way my old brain works. Currently I am about to finnish another complex 16 layer design on v7.7 wich I have been working on for quite a few months (the workload was very unknown when I started). After this is done, there may be a few revisions to clean stuff up, then silence for an unknown period, and maybe smaller periods where the full version is needed again. The new exiting v8 features came a little late, but I would love to have full modular designs when I started. I have quite a few re-use candidates on this board. Going forward, there is no way for me to plan when or how long I need a license, I have to do guesstimates. If there are delays, the cost impact is unknown. This may probably be avoided if we calculate to "throw money at autodesk" to practically get a permanent license, and if I did continuous pcb development, that would probably be an ok solution, but I don't do this continuosly. I will move into FPGA development to get this product running. The best solution would be no doubt to relax all these unknowns, pay a predictable sum for a permanent 8.x and not worry while I do my real work. At the same time, I could have posted suggestions and bugs to the nntp forums, while helping out a couple of noobs while I am at it. All this said, I guess there must be an economical reason for Cadsoft selling Eagle. I hope it wasn't just for a quick profit for the owners, but rather because of difficult times ahead. Having said that, I think cadsoft could have raised the price if they had the manpower to add functionality.

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CadSoft Guest Feb 22, 2017 5:47 AM (in response to rachaelp) 227. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Am 22.02.2017 um 12:05 schrieb rachaelp: Jan Cumps wrote:

So why do I have to pay what I do not need forever?

Isn't this what the new license policy allowes you to do?

Yes it is! When you don't need Premium, you drop down to Standard. Indeed! And when I need the premium again, but my financial situation changed and disallows my to subscribe again, I can't use the software I already paid maybe thousands of dollars already for to start a new project. What a super exiting new feature, so cool! Rene

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rachaelp Feb 22, 2017 5:50 AM (in response to geralds) 228. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Gerald Schwarz wrote: sorry, but hoping (also hopping and dancing) and praying we can do it in the church. In business we have concrete facts. I don't do church, I do do business. I'm also not hoping and praying or hopping and dancing. Gerald Schwarz wrote: The fact is that, if Autodesk has a disaster in its territory, for example earthquake or internal political problems in the company, millions of users can also close their company or minimum their software. Then we all have the huge problem of fixing the billions of damage, with all sorts of court actions. If we both have a local problem, others are not affected. If other clients have their problems then we are both not affected by these local problems. This is the next big problem with such a kind of licensing policy. These are facts, not belief or hope. The license is broken! I'm sure Autodesk has plenty of servers spread around the world so an earthquake or similar shouldn't be an issue. Internal political problems within the company likely won't shut the servers overnight either. If anything were to happen, I'm pretty sure I could migrate my data elsewhere if I absolutely had to but I have v7 anyway so can always fall back on that. If all the concessions Matt Berggren gave in another thread come to fruition (and I believe they will) then all v8 subscribers should get an equivalent v7 license entitlement. I'm going to be regularly testing v8 -> v7 compatibility when I go to v8 to ensure I can go back at any point and if that ever breaks you can bet I will be letting Autodesk know about it very quickly. So, I really am not worried and I believe I can mitigate pretty much all the risks associated with the new licensing model. Gerald Schwarz wrote: We have been waiting four years for a serious and well-functioning software update. I have not V7 pro, but only V6.xx. pro, because the V7 is a scrap. So I wanted to skip V7 and I've always told Cadsoft, synonymous I have written this in the German and English forums. Now with Autodesk, the promised number 8 is here, but with the same weak uptrend. And come all the time with hopes and prayers .. I can do that in the church, not in the business market. I agree, but EAGLE has been starved of resources for years so important new features didn't come to fruition. v7 is pretty good and very stable though so I don't think it's scrap. It may not be a huge step up from v6 but it did improve the library management significantly throughout its releases. Hierarchical design is there but it's a bit of a kludge at the moment, it's usable but it's not ideal. This is one area I hope they will finish off properly in v8. Again, I'm not doing any praying. They'll have to show that they are actually giving good new features or they'll lose more people to other ECAD packages if they don't see there being significant improvement for their continued subscription money. Gerald Schwarz wrote: You must be able to continue working if Autodesk does not update the software. Otherwise hell is going on, and all this on the whole planet. Just because Autodesk has a subscription philosophy ... well, this is a "hard tobacco" ... Should productivity remain stuck on a global scale? I just don't see there being a huge risk to not being able to continue working. There are some issues with the new licensing yes, but nothing so severe that it'll completely kill my productivity overnight. I'd always have an out if the worst happened. Gerald, at the end of the day, for you this licensing change is clearly something you clearly can't accept. That's fine and I respect that, but for me I can make it work. I don't think Autodesk will make the changes you are asking for though I know we are at polar opposites on this issue, I don't think we'll ever completely agree on this topic. Hopefully we can agree to disagree and move on to have better discussions on other topics in future. As I said in another post, the biggest issue for me is what the licensing change has done to the EAGLE community, this is the thing for me which is hardest to accept, it's quite sad that what was once quite a busy community with lots of people around to offer help and support seems to have been fractured with a lot of the long time users dropping out of sight. I hope once the dust settles and things calm down, that some of these people come back.... Best wishes, Rachael

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rachaelp Feb 22, 2017 6:17 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 229. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Morten Leikvoll wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 11:23 Since I'm probably one of the long time users, and at least periodically visiting nearly every day, here is my status: Hi Morten, You are indeed one of the long term users I was referring to and I have personally missed your input into the forums in the last month or so. I do appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts today and I hope I see you back on here more frequently once you have had time to fully digest the implications of the changes on you Best Regards, Rachael -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca

:: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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geralds Feb 22, 2017 6:22 AM (in response to rachaelp) 230. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Congratulation! now we are confirm. Full into the target. Yes that's what i meant. Yes, DIN A4 with all layers, ok, but minimum 8 layers (will say in business quoting: "half of the full", "fifty / fifty chance" ) because you have power planes for complex chips with more then one power voltages, also complex routing with the pin hungry chips. FPGAs, µProcessors with 1000 pins or so, are now nearly standard. The last 4U backplane was 6 layer high but we saved space because we didn't mounted all components. Now, you'll see I'm flexible also in discussions. But right now, we need "nails with heads". The first problem, like atomic explosion, is after expiring the license period. I can't often enough argument this. Best Regards, Gerald ---

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rachaelp Feb 22, 2017 6:25 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 231. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

CadSoft Guest wrote: Am 22.02.2017 um 12:05 schrieb rachaelp: Jan Cumps wrote:

So why do I have to pay what I do not need forever?

Isn't this what the new license policy allowes you to do? Yes it is! When you don't need Premium, you drop down to Standard. Indeed! And when I need the premium again, but my financial situation changed and disallows my to subscribe again, I can't use the software I already paid maybe thousands of dollars already for to start a new project. What a super exiting new feature, so cool! Rene Hi Rene, Yes I take your point. But for me, the cost of the premium license is relatively insignificant when compared to other costs involved in designing electronics. Even on a relatively small project the cost of prototyping a design will be the dominant cost in the early stages even before you consider things like certifications and production transition costs. If the cost of the Premium subscription was not financially viable I think that would be the least of my worries. I appreciate that everybody is different and have different costs but I would just factor in an amount for keeping EAGLE on active subscription into my budgeting and then either buy annual subscriptions or put the money to one side to cover the cost of the licensing. At the end of the financial year you'd then either be on budget or you'd have a surplus which you could put towards something else you'd like. I'm looking at this from a business perspective. I'd likely have upgraded every 18 months to 2 years when a new version came out with the previous licensing so on balance the new change isn't costing me any more. Personal users will likely have a different view and I do feel for the previous Maker license owners who have no path to an equivalent v8 license. Best Regards, Rachael

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rachaelp Feb 23, 2017 1:40 AM (in response to geralds) 232. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Gerald Schwarz wrote: Yes, DIN A4 with all layers, ok, but minimum 8 layers (will say in business quoting: "half of the full", "fifty / fifty chance" ) because you have power planes for complex chips with more then one power voltages, also complex routing with the pin hungry chips. FPGAs, µProcessors with 1000 pins or so, are now nearly standard. So what we are proposing is an intermediate "Standard Plus" which would do DIN A4 size up to 8-layers for somewhere between the Standard and Premium license costs? I think that would be fair. Lets see if anybody from Autodesk is reading and whether they will consider it Even with large FPGA's and uProcessors you can do an awful lot in 8-layers, even less layers sometimes. You can usually construct all the required power fills required to power a device without needing a whole layer for each if you are careful how you split the planes out to ensure you don't leave high speed signals running over splits in planes and messing up their signal integrity. It can take a bit of thought but its doable. Gerald Schwarz wrote: The first problem, like atomic explosion, is after expiring the license period. I can't often enough argument this. Unfortunately I don't think this is going to ever change no matter how much you argue against it. As I said, I don't see it as a huge problem as I will just either budget to keep an active subscription (whether I decide to use the budget or not) when I go to v8 (I am not going to yet) or just fall back to v7. I'm going to regularly ensure I can take my designs backwards once I go to v8 so it's never going to be an issue for me. I might even automate the process so it's all done for me! Best Regards, Rachael

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geralds Feb 22, 2017 7:01 AM (in response to rachaelp) 233. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi, Gerald Schwarz wrote: Yes, DIN A4 with all layers, ok, but minimum 8 layers (will say in business quoting: "half of the full", "fifty / fifty chance" ) because you have power planes for complex chips with more then one power voltages, also complex routing with the pin hungry chips. FPGAs, µProcessors with 1000 pins or so, are now nearly standard. So what we are proposing is an intermediate "Standard Plus" which would do DIN A4 size up to 8-layers for somewhere between the Standard and Premium license costs? I think that would be fair. Lets see if anybody from Autodesk is reading and whether they will consider it Even with large FPGA's and uProcessors you can do an awful lot in 8-layers, even less layers sometimes. You can usually construct all the required power fills required to power a device without needing a whole layer for each if you are careful how you split the planes out to ensure you don't leave high speed signals running over splits in planes and messing up their signal integrity. It can take a bit of thought but its doable. Yes, also agree. With that we can live. Big projects are other pair of shoes. Unfortunately I don't think this is going to ever change no matter how much you argue against it. As I said, I don't see it as a huge problem as I will just either budget to keep an active subscription (whether I decide to use the budget or not) when I go to v8 (I am not going to yet) or just fall back to v7. I'm going to regularly ensure I can take my designs backwards once I go to v8 so it's never going to be an issue for me. I might even automate the process so it's all done for me! I also hope that Autodesk read this. I feel that we have just 14 days after the disaster to finishing all open projects also saving our files and changing to an other tool. Best Regards, Gerald ---

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rachaelp Feb 22, 2017 7:12 AM (in response to geralds) 234. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Gerald, Gerald Schwarz wrote: Gerald Schwarz wrote: Yes, DIN A4 with all layers, ok, but minimum 8 layers (will say in business quoting: "half of the full", "fifty / fifty chance" ) because you have power planes for complex chips with more then one power voltages, also complex routing with the pin hungry chips. FPGAs, µProcessors with 1000 pins or so, are now nearly standard. So what we are proposing is an intermediate "Standard Plus" which would do DIN A4 size up to 8-layers for somewhere between the Standard and Premium license costs? I think that would be fair. Lets see if anybody from Autodesk is reading and whether they will consider it Even with large FPGA's and uProcessors you can do an awful lot in 8-layers, even less layers sometimes. You can usually construct all the required power fills required to power a device without needing a whole layer for each if you are careful how you split the planes out to ensure you don't leave high speed signals running over splits in planes and messing up their signal integrity. It can take a bit of thought but its doable. Yes, also agree. With that we can live. Big projects are other pair of shoes. Ok, that's good. Lets see if they are reading and what they say then. Gerald Schwarz wrote: Unfortunately I don't think this is going to ever change no matter how much you argue against it. As I said, I don't see it as a huge problem as I will just either budget to keep an active subscription (whether I decide to use the budget or not) when I go to v8 (I am not going to yet) or just fall back to v7. I'm going to regularly ensure I can take my designs backwards once I go to v8 so it's never going to be an issue for me. I might even automate the process so it's all done for me! I also hope that Autodesk read this. I feel that we have just 14 days after the disaster to finishing all open projects also saving our files and changing to an other tool. You see that's where I think you are being too pessimistic. If you can revert to an existing v6/v7 licence and open your design and it be fully editable then you aren't in any difficult situation. If they were to change things so the required call back period for the v8 subscription was linked to the length of your subscription would that alleviate your concerns? I don't know if this is something they would consider though. Best Regards, Rachael

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albertovignati Feb 22, 2017 8:17 AM (in response to rachaelp) 235. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Rachael, Il 22/02/2017 14:12, rachaelp ha scritto: Gerald Schwarz wrote:

Unfortunately I don't think this is going to ever change no matter how much you argue against it. As I said, I don't see it as a huge problem as I will just either budget to keep an active subscription (whether I decide to use the budget or not) when I go to v8 (I am not going to yet) or just fall back to v7. I'm going to regularly ensure I can take my designs backwards once I go to v8 so it's never going to be an issue for me. I might even automate the process so it's all done for me!

I also hope that Autodesk read this. I feel that we have just 14 days after the disaster to finishing all open projects also saving our files and changing to an other tool.

You see that's where I think you are being too pessimistic. If you can revert to an existing v6/v7 licence and open your design and it be fully editable then you aren't in any difficult situation. If they were to change things so the required call back period for the v8 subscription was linked to the length of your subscription would that alleviate your concerns? I don't know if this is something they would consider though. you are hoping that it is always possible to revert to an older version (I have a full 6.6 pro license, schematiclayoutautorouter), but this is an hope, not neccessarly a truth. Please, consider a scenario in which you need to maintain a big project for a long time and for some reason (dismissions, incompatibilities, lack of support etc.) the old design is no longer editable and also it is not possible to revert it to a v6/7 format. This is an atomic explosion: you can not access to your data. It is possible that older subscription are no longer available/supported (obsolete), newest are not fully compatible and perpetual v6/7 are too obsolete. This can easily happen if revenues will be not enought and Autodesk will decide to stop Eagle and no one will buy the "Cadsoft" division. They are trying an experiment and the success is not guaranteed. They have taken into account to lose customers like me, if 95% of customers are like me the experiment will fail. In such scenario you can cope if you have, for example, the release you used at that time in a virtual machine. In a perpetual model this works, in a subscription model not. Said that, I can not accept a license model in which the software functions expire. I can accept a maintenance model because the software never expires, I lose only the right to upgrade and the support, not functionalities. I have some tools in a maintenance model: if I stop the maintenance and after a while I will decide to restart, I will have to recover the lack of maintenance period, which is expensive, at limit I will have to pay the full license price, but I never and never lose the functionalities of the software, never. This is a very big worth, this is vital for me. Why Autodesk refuses this schema? Revenues are similar... They want to "got married" you with their products: if you decide to change the tool you will have to pay for maintaining the old projects: you will have to pay twice! I am satisfied of Eagle, but if nothing changes, I will have to switch to an alternative. This only and only and only due to the new license model. Kind regards Alberto

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rachaelp Feb 22, 2017 8:51 AM (in response to albertovignati) 236. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Alberto Vignati wrote: Hi Rachael, Il 22/02/2017 14:12, rachaelp ha scritto: Gerald Schwarz wrote:

Unfortunately I don't think this is going to ever change no matter how much you argue against it. As I said, I don't see it as a huge problem as I will just either budget to keep an active subscription (whether I decide to use the budget or not) when I go to v8 (I am not going to yet) or just fall back to v7. I'm going to regularly ensure I can take my designs backwards once I go to v8 so it's never going to be an issue for me. I might even automate the process so it's all done for me!

I also hope that Autodesk read this. I feel that we have just 14 days after the disaster to finishing all open projects also saving our files and changing to an other tool. You see that's where I think you are being too pessimistic. If you can revert to an existing v6/v7 licence and open your design and it be fully editable then you aren't in any difficult situation. If they were to change things so the required call back period for the v8 subscription was linked to the length of your subscription would that alleviate your concerns? I don't know if this is something they would consider though. you are hoping that it is always possible to revert to an older version (I have a full 6.6 pro license, schematiclayoutautorouter), but this is an hope, not neccessarly a truth. Nope, I am not relying on any hope of backwards compatibility with v7. Please read all my post. I will regularly check things go backwards to my perpetual v7 license and if that ever breaks I will be straight onto Autodesk to get it resolved. There is no hope, only certainty. If at any point a v8 update ceases to be enable me to go back to v7 I will not use that update until it's resolved. Simple. I have v7 forever, I have a plan to mitigate backwards compatibility and I am happy with it. Alberto Vignati wrote: Please, consider a scenario in which you need to maintain a big project for a long time and for some reason (dismissions, incompatibilities, lack of support etc.) the old design is no longer editable and also it is not possible to revert it to a v6/7 format. This is an atomic explosion: you can not access to your data. It is possible that older subscription are no longer available/supported (obsolete), newest are not fully compatible and perpetual v6/7 are too obsolete. Yes I understand the argument but I think I have this covered. I agree, just being able to open up the exact version of EAGLE I used and know it will work forever is by far the preferable option but I think my way of mitigating the risk is enough such that if I was ever in this situation I could revert to my old v7 license. At the end of the day, for me this licensing change is far less horrible/evil than the flexlm style licensing Farnell tried to do to EAGLE which I assume was to introduce a maintenance system. I hate flexlm type licensing as it means it's not usually possible to legitimately use your license on multiple machines (not simultaneously) without having an annoying dongle situation to provide node locking for this (I don't want node locking and dongles are a failure point. You can lose a dongle or it could stop working and you'd be stuffed until you could get a new dongle. I've seen this before and it usually happens when you have a critical deadline....) or a network license server which makes it impossible to take your laptop away somewhere and still use your license unless that was also hosting your license server too, in which case if you are away and your laptop got stolen, whoops you can't use your EAGLE again on your main network until you've rebuilt a new license server.... It all gets annoying very quickly with flexlm style licensing and to me risks much more down time so the current online activation seems much less of a pain. Don't get me wrong, I would prefer to be able to have the ability to make the current subscription version permanent (maybe with a final payment to convert the license) if I ended the subscription but that isn't currently an option so I am not going to worry about it as I can mitigate the risks in other ways. Best Regards, Rachael

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omikron Feb 22, 2017 9:08 AM (in response to rachaelp) 237. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I cannot pay every year for software I use for no profit. Maybe people who design PCBs for money can pay it but I can't. Eagle is killed by Autodesk..

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rachaelp Feb 22, 2017 9:14 AM (in response to omikron) 238. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Tomas Franke wrote: I cannot pay every year for software I use for no profit. Maybe people who design PCBs for money can pay it but I can't. Eagle is killed by Autodesk.. Hi Tomas, I agree with you here, assuming your requirements are greater than those of the available freeware license, there should at least be an equivalent non-commercial license at very low cost equivalent to the previous maker license. There currently isn't an option at that end which is unfortunate as I think having such a license would help a lot of people out and stop them leaving for KiCAD. I guess we'll have to wait and see if Autodesk decide to do anything else on the licensing front. Best Regards, Rachael

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CadSoft Guest Feb 22, 2017 10:57 AM (in response to rachaelp) 239. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 00:45 I'm hoping once the dust settles some of the original long time members of these forums will start to visit again.... I hope so, their experience is valuable and their help was always appreciated.... I share that hope, but it isn't usually the way of these things. We all returned last time after they reverted the license scheme, but... Quote: I'm hoping Jorge, Ed and Richard (haven't seen him on here for a while!) will be around for the foreseeable future so it's not all change. I suspect any new tech support people will be on the Autodesk official forums rather than here though. Richard seems to be hanging around in the https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-deutsch/bd-p/3558 . Speaking of the official forums, should we start a lottery for when the nntp servers will be shut off? -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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CadSoft Guest Feb 22, 2017 10:57 AM (in response to rachaelp) 240. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 00:45 I'm hoping once the dust settles some of the original long time members of these forums will start to visit again.... I hope so, their experience is valuable and their help was always appreciated.... I share that hope, but it isn't usually the way of these things. We all returned last time after they reverted the license scheme, but... Quote: I'm hoping Jorge, Ed and Richard (haven't seen him on here for a while!) will be around for the foreseeable future so it's not all change. I suspect any new tech support people will be on the Autodesk official forums rather than here though. Richard seems to be hanging around in the https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-deutsch/bd-p/3558 . Speaking of the official forums, should we start a lottery for when the nntp servers will be shut off? -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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CadSoft Guest Feb 22, 2017 11:07 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 241. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hey Morten, It's nice to hear from you glad you are still around here lurking. I know there is a lot of unknowns and fear right now. I know I've written this like a million times at this point but remember that you can subscribe for a month at a minimum so the cost to try out the new features isn't that bad (Full 16 layer version of EAGLE for $65.00 for one month). The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than E-14 but I know that's not saying much. When I first started using it, kicked me out a few times but I could still post and respond so not a big deal. I encourage you to check it out when you have a chance( 16 layer board, wow). We really value Morten and all the users like him. I figure that right now most of our experienced users are waiting to see how this all pans out and I respect that, in your position I would do the same thing. Ed and I are still here and we intend to be here for the foreseeable future(in Rachel's terms). Let us know if there's anything we can do for you. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia -We have a new forum here

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CadSoft Guest Feb 22, 2017 11:07 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 242. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hey Morten, It's nice to hear from you glad you are still around here lurking. I know there is a lot of unknowns and fear right now. I know I've written this like a million times at this point but remember that you can subscribe for a month at a minimum so the cost to try out the new features isn't that bad (Full 16 layer version of EAGLE for $65.00 for one month). The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than E-14 but I know that's not saying much. When I first started using it, kicked me out a few times but I could still post and respond so not a big deal. I encourage you to check it out when you have a chance( 16 layer board, wow). We really value Morten and all the users like him. I figure that right now most of our experienced users are waiting to see how this all pans out and I respect that, in your position I would do the same thing. Ed and I are still here and we intend to be here for the foreseeable future(in Rachel's terms). Let us know if there's anything we can do for you. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia -We have a new forum here

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sreaves Feb 22, 2017 11:08 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 243. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I think Autodesk has driven a stake in the heart of Eagle. The one and ONLY reason Autodesk is changing to the subscription model is to generate revenue, no matter what they say in public. The could have left the program licensing alone and had a large group of dedicated users many of which would be willing to pay for upgrades under the old system. I for one will never buy any major software packages that require exorbitant fees to maintain what already works for me. Just because "everyone else in doing it" is no excuse. It did not work when I was a teenager and it certainly falls on deaf ears now. I think they needed something to compete with SolidWorks (which is a better program than anything that Autodesk has turned out) who recently teamed up with Altium for their PCB package. Unfortunately for Autodesk Eagle is not in the same league as Altium. So they are still stinging from when they had their behinds beat when SolidWorks first released their product and a lot of AutoCAD seats (along with the annual revenue) disappeared. After that the company that bought SolidWorks (Desault Systems, they also own Catia) released DraftSight for Free which can read and write all AutoCAD formats, this killed off 2D for Autodesk for many. The lack of backwards file saving with newer versions was one of issues with later versions of AutoCAD as they change the .dwg format so you coulkd not save backward compatible versions, this was a big shortfall for companies that work with many vendors, some of which could not afford to keep updating).So again like my Dad told me if someone tells you it's not about the money it usually is. On low cost and probably better PCB alternatives: For most of my PCB work I use an inexpensive program called SprintLayout6.0 from Abacom. Costs $50.00 and does a lot of amazing things. Support is wonderful. Product only needs something like 6MB. Okay no autorouter or netlist in/out but I never use one anyway. It is only "lacking" in features that lazy PCB designers need for the most part for 2-4 layer boards. I have made 100's of bug free boards with it. It may not be what you need (or think you need) but for 50 bucks you might want to give it a spin and see how well it works. You can directly import those Eagle 274X gerbers with your drill file and turn it into an editable PCB. This alone is worth the 50 bucks. Sprint-Layout My full take on EEVBlog: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/great-substitute-for-eagle-(now-that-it-has-been-autodesk'ed)/ The other choice for more powerful work would be DipTrace. One time fee. Upgrades free. Something like $1195.00 for the full boat (unlimited pins and layers) version. If you are a hobby or non-profit you can get the full boat one for 348.00 www.diptrace.com Of course there is KeyCAD which I need to take a look at. Sam W3OHM

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Jan Cumps Feb 22, 2017 11:22 AM (in response to sreaves) 244. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I think Autodesk has driven a stake in the heart of Eagle. Ow come on. It has had the biggest development injection since forever. Your push to jump to another tool on eevblog hasn't got any support. A single negative reaction. 1 of 1 people found this helpful Actions

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Ed Robledo Feb 22, 2017 12:05 PM (in response to omikron) 245. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I cannot pay every year for software I use for no profit. Maybe people who design PCBs for money can pay it but I can't. Eagle is killed by Autodesk.. Hobbies always incur into some expense, so having a commercially supported program with a team of developers and support personnel providing the best answer possible to your inquiries for a modest subscription of around $100/year doesn't seem like a really big ask. You can use a monthly subscription and only update your entitlement when necessary. But I guess the ball is in our court now, its a matter of proving to the community how committed to continue making EAGLE a great product . Best Regards, Ed EAGLE Forums

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brentbolton Feb 22, 2017 1:06 PM (in response to Ed Robledo) 246. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I'm not a hobbyist, I design and build things for a living. As part of that I use lots of tool chains, not just my EagleCAD. I may go for a year or more without using a particular tool, but when I need one I want it available. If I had to pay a $500 annual subscription on every software tool I use I would quickly go out of business. A subscription license model fits a certain profile of user, no doubt. I don't fit that profile. There is absolutely no reason that Autodesk can't offer both subscription and perpetual licenses, other than they must know that most EagleCAD users would opt for the latter and their Eagle division would not be able to extract maximum revenue. Sad, as everyone knows what eventually happens to businesses that prioritize their revenue stream over serving their customers. Frankly a pcb design tool that doesn't do simulation is not bleeding edge technology and hasn't been for a long time. It doesn't matter how much you "improve" it, it's still just a schematic capture and layout tool, perhaps with a prettier UI. If you want to add exotic simulation capabilities to that, great, but get your revenues from things like that that are truly improvements. Brent

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CadSoft Guest Feb 22, 2017 1:22 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 247. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 22.02.2017 18:07, Jorge Garcia wrote: The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than E-14 but I know that's not saying much. If it is better than E-14, then it certainly has a NNTP gateway, just as your forums have. Right? Forums without NNTP are too time-consuming to follow. Regards, Dietmar

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CadSoft Guest Feb 22, 2017 1:22 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 248. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 22.02.2017 18:07, Jorge Garcia wrote: The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than E-14 but I know that's not saying much. If it is better than E-14, then it certainly has a NNTP gateway, just as your forums have. Right? Forums without NNTP are too time-consuming to follow. Regards, Dietmar

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Joop14 Feb 22, 2017 1:58 PM (in response to sreaves) 249. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Sam Reaves wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 18:08 I think Autodesk has driven a stake in the heart of Eagle. Yep. After a year or so they'll pull the plug because of lack of revenue. I guess they are already in panic and don't know how to solve the situation they are in. The big boss shouted to them "Whatever you do, NO perpetual license!!". And now they are with their back to the wall, unsure if they will still have a job next year... -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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rachaelp Feb 22, 2017 3:43 PM (in response to brentbolton) 250. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Brent Bolton wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 19:06 I'm not a hobbyist, I design and build things for a living. As part of that I use lots of tool chains, not just my EagleCAD. I may go for a year or more without using a particular tool, but when I need one I want it available. If I had to pay a $500 annual subscription on every software tool I use I would quickly go out of business. A subscription license model fits a certain profile of user, no doubt. I don't fit that profile. Hi Brett, From what you are saying it actually sounds like the subscription fits you perfectly. When you don't need it you don't keep your subscription going but when you want it again you simply renew your subscription online at the level you need for the project you are about to undertake. You don't need to spend $500 per year to keep the subscription going if you aren't going to use it.... If you need it for a month or two ever year or so then it's only going to be costing you $65 to $130 when you need it assuming Premium or if you only need to do a small 4 layer board then, well it's only going to be $15 to $30, well short of the $500/year... Best Regards, Rachael -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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rachaelp Feb 22, 2017 3:47 PM (in response to rachaelp) 251. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 21:43 Hi Brett, Hi Brent, I also apologise for calling you Brett in my last message! Best Regards, Rachael -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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brentbolton Feb 22, 2017 4:13 PM (in response to rachaelp) 252. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Hi Rachael Brett or Brent, no problem. Anyway, as always the devil is in the details. While I could do as you say, a more typical usage scenario for me is that I don't use the tool for a couple of months, then a customer calls me up with a question or a minor change and I need the tool for half an hour. It would be really annoying to have to go online and spend a half hour renewing for a half hour of work, not to mention paying for a full month. The bottom line for me is that you need to listen to your customers. If only half the people on this forum are screaming about the license, and I think it's more than that, then you've made that amount of your customer base angry at you. That's never a good business strategy. I plan to stay angry with Autodesk until they change the license, and maybe after that if it doesn't happen promptly. I should also remind you that designers like me don't necessarily stay in one CAD silo. I do mechanical design as well, have used Autodesk tools, and used to have a favorable opinion of the company. Not any more. After Cadence bought OrCAD and screwed me over on a subsequent project, also over a license issue, I made it company policy to never do business with Cadence. That policy still stands. Would Autodesk like to join that party?

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rachaelp Feb 22, 2017 4:22 PM (in response to brentbolton) 253. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Brent Bolton wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 22:13 Hi Rachael Brett or Brent, no problem. Anyway, as always the devil is in the details. While I could do as you say, a more typical usage scenario for me is that I don't use the tool for a couple of months, then a customer calls me up with a question or a minor change and I need the tool for half an hour. It would be really annoying to have to go online and spend a half hour renewing for a half hour of work, not to mention paying for a full month. The bottom line for me is that you need to listen to your customers. If only half the people on this forum are screaming about the license, and I think it's more than that, then you've made that amount of your customer base angry at you. That's never a good business strategy. I plan to stay angry with Autodesk until they change the license, and maybe after that if it doesn't happen promptly. I should also remind you that designers like me don't necessarily stay in one CAD silo. I do mechanical design as well, have used Autodesk tools, and used to have a favorable opinion of the company. Not any more. After Cadence bought OrCAD and screwed me over on a subsequent project, also over a license issue, I made it company policy to never do business with Cadence. That policy still stands. Would Autodesk like to join that party? -To view any images and attachments in this post, visit: https://www.element14.com/community/message/216487 Hi Brent, Just a quick FYI, I don't work for Autodesk.... It seems I am getting mistaken for an Autodesk employee a lot these days.... I am an EAGLE user just like you. I just happen to not mind the new licensing so much.... Best Regards, Rachael -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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rachaelp Feb 22, 2017 4:22 PM (in response to brentbolton) 254. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Brent Bolton wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 22:13 Hi Rachael Brett or Brent, no problem. Anyway, as always the devil is in the details. While I could do as you say, a more typical usage scenario for me is that I don't use the tool for a couple of months, then a customer calls me up with a question or a minor change and I need the tool for half an hour. It would be really annoying to have to go online and spend a half hour renewing for a half hour of work, not to mention paying for a full month. The bottom line for me is that you need to listen to your customers. If only half the people on this forum are screaming about the license, and I think it's more than that, then you've made that amount of your customer base angry at you. That's never a good business strategy. I plan to stay angry with Autodesk until they change the license, and maybe after that if it doesn't happen promptly. I should also remind you that designers like me don't necessarily stay in one CAD silo. I do mechanical design as well, have used Autodesk tools, and used to have a favorable opinion of the company. Not any more. After Cadence bought OrCAD and screwed me over on a subsequent project, also over a license issue, I made it company policy to never do business with Cadence. That policy still stands. Would Autodesk like to join that party? -To view any images and attachments in this post, visit: https://www.element14.com/community/message/216487 Hi Brent, Just a quick FYI, I don't work for Autodesk.... It seems I am getting mistaken for an Autodesk employee a lot these days.... I am an EAGLE user just like you. I just happen to not mind the new licensing so much.... Best Regards, Rachael -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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rachaelp Feb 22, 2017 4:27 PM (in response to brentbolton) 255. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Brent Bolton wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 22:13 a more typical usage scenario for me is that I don't use the tool for a couple of months, then a customer calls me up with a question or a minor change and I need the tool for half an hour. It would be really annoying to have to go online and spend a half hour renewing for a half hour of work, not to mention paying for a full month. Also, if you just need to check something then you can open and view in the freeware version just fine. If the changes are minor (even if they are not that minor) you could just do them in a v7 licensed EAGLE which no doubt you will have hanging around still. Best Regards, Rachael -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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brentbolton Feb 22, 2017 4:33 PM (in response to rachaelp) 256. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Yes, I see that now from your earlier posts. It might help if you wrote so as not to sound like an Autodesk employee. I'm glad that the subscription model works for you - I conceded in an earlier post that it is certainly good for a class of users. And I also said that Autodesk could easily offer both license types, if they wanted. Apparently they don't want to so they may get to join my CAD company no-fly list. You should care about this also, even though you like the new license, as if enough of us leave Eagle and it gets a bad rep in the design community, then Autodesk may just kill it off and you're left without a good CAD solution as well. Best, Brent

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sreaves Feb 22, 2017 4:51 PM (in response to Jan Cumps) 257. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Jan, What you say makes no sense if one looks at the Eagle community that I know. It seams by my count on EEVblog or wherever I have looked that the vast majority of Eagle users are NOT in favor of the pay forever subscription model, especially if the current version does all that they need. In many cases quality software can be used for decades without any updates. I ran Tango Series II DOS for years at the last version only having to abandon it due only to the inability to run it on modern operating systems. Ask the fellows out there that are still running OrCAD 386+ DOS in DOSBox. It runs perfectly fine and you can still make any PCB you want with it. There are users out there that still do the real work with the DOS version because in the end it's the Gerber files that define the board. As long as you can make the files you need with whatever software you are running that is all that really counts. For the Eagle users that have been satisfied with what they purchased there is no real advantage to upgrading and in fact I have seen more issues in the software world break with an upgrade. On the single response that you note my preference for a tool is just a suggestion users can try it or not but I do not know any other program that offers the performance at 10X the cost (actuallly 20X as it has more power than my Tango Series II had and it was purchased for 995.00 in 1980's era dollard. Don't knock it until you tried it. It's quick, simple and low cost. Everything that ANY subscription model isn't One more issue: Government entities do not like any type of online register only or cloud based systems due to security concerns. Eagle will probably loose some customers that fall into that category as well. I know quite a few that use LPKF machines to make boards for "black projects" and a lot of them used Eagle. I short AutoDesk should have just let the sleeping dog lie. I should have added the usual disclaimer that I have no financial interest in any of the companies I have mentioned nor any distributors of same. Best regards, Sam

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rachaelp Feb 22, 2017 4:52 PM (in response to brentbolton) 258. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Brent Bolton wrote: Yes, I see that now from your earlier posts. It might help if you wrote so as not to sound like an Autodesk employee. I'm glad that the subscription model works for you -- I conceded in an earlier post that it is certainly good for a class of users. And I also said that Autodesk could easily offer both license types, if they wanted. Apparently they don't want to so they may get to join my CAD company no-fly list. You should care about this also, even though you like the new license, as if enough of us leave Eagle and it gets a bad rep in the design community, then Autodesk may just kill it off and you're left without a good CAD solution as well. Best, Brent Hi Brent, Actually if I were to choose I would much prefer the old license model, but it is not going to happen I don't think and what we have now is way better than what Farnell tried to do and at least now there is significant development resources going into improving EAGLE. I could get angry about the licensing but that wont solve anything so I am choosing to be positive about it and move forward. I can mitigate the negatives, and on balance it will cost me about the same as I will just have annual premium subscriptions which, factoring in upgrade cycles previously, works out about the same. Additionally, if I need any short term assistance and need a second license for a few months it works out a lot cheaper as I wont need to buy a complete second license Just a second subscription for a short period. Bedt Regards, Rachael

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bvwj Feb 22, 2017 5:12 PM (in response to rachaelp) 259. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Rachael, You are missing the big picture. Many of us do not believe Eagle can survive under this new licensing model. Over the years I have moved 4 different companies to Eagle, none of them are interested in the subscription license. Clearly there are a few of you who can accept the new model, but the question is are there enough of you to keep Eagle alive at Autodesk. My calculation is no. They will miss their revenue goals and the project will be abandon. Their promises of more improvements and backward compatibility are worth exactly as much as their promise 6 months ago that they wouldn't go subscription. It's our responsibility as business people to evaluate the viability of our suppliers. Subscription Eagle at Autodesk isn't viable because they won't attract the customers. The value proposition just isn't there. They have no defensible market between KiCad and Altium. Non-subscription Eagle at Autodesk isn't viable because it doesn't match their integrated software as a service goals. So Eagle is dead. That is very painful for many of us. It actually makes me sick in my stomach, but you have to deal with the hard reality. There is no reason to risk your company's productivity on someone else's fantasy business model even if the community used to be enjoyable. I think any time spent on v8 is wasted in the long run. Sorry 2 of 2 people found this helpful Actions

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CadSoft Guest Mar 8, 2017 11:46 AM (in response to brentbolton) 260. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

On 22.02.2017 23:13, Brent Bolton wrote: The bottom line for me is that you need to listen to your customers. If only half the people on this forum are screaming about the license, and I think it's more than that, then you've made that amount of your customer base angry at you. That's never a good business strategy. I plan to stay angry with Autodesk until they change the license, and maybe after that if it doesn't happen promptly. Yep, exactly. I should also remind you that designers like me don't necessarily stay in one CAD silo. I do mechanical design as well, have used Autodesk tools, and used to have a favorable opinion of the company. The guy in charge of our Inventor Licenses at my company is also pissed and will stay with Inventor 2014 as long as possible as Autodesk refuses to sell perpetual licenses. Gained revenue for Autodesk = NIL So that makes already two people being pissed As a lot of people said, it's not about the money. I would even buy a perpetual license if it's double the price it was before at CadSoft, even with the EUR surcharge. To support the development. It's money in advance for Autodesk. But I will not let me be treaten as cash cow ad infinitum. So no pertpetual license = money paid from my side = NIL Markus 1 of 1 people found this helpful Actions

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CadSoft Guest Feb 22, 2017 5:32 PM (in response to Ed Robledo) 261. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 21.02.2017 22:54, Ed Robledo wrote: The license isn't broken, nothing to fix there. It is. Make a poll on the Autodesk Website which license model the customer wants and provide the license model according to poll result. Ah wait.... Democracy has issues in the US recently... Markus

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rbtx99 Feb 22, 2017 5:41 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 262. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

It is. Make a poll on the Autodesk Website which license model the customer wants and provide the license model according to poll result. Why? Autodesk don't need to use only one or the other. You can have both licensing models at the same time and if someone is willing to take the risk with the online activation license... good luck to him.

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Jan Cumps Feb 22, 2017 5:51 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 263. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Commerce is delivering a product that the costumer wants, and asking a competitive price for that. if you let your customers poll what your price should be, you're bankrupt in minutes.

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e14candies Feb 22, 2017 6:47 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 264. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

posted : Actually if I were to choose I would much prefer the old license model, but it is not going to happen Why would it not happen? What would prevent it? Autodesk is giving upon Eagle business already?? I'm not sure what the difficulty Autodesk has in reverting to the standard Eagle license. They can still offer a subscription. This should probably be moved up the chain of command at Autodesk or its board members--if they hear that many many customers are getting more & more upset with Autodesk products, hindered development and not listening to customers, then they may be inclined to listen more attentively. There are many EDA news boards out there and the facts of how Eagle customers are being treated can be posted there as well. They may want to consider what is happening with Eagle when evaluating it. -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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CadSoft Guest Feb 23, 2017 1:13 AM (in response to rbtx99) 265. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 23.02.2017 00:41, rbtx99 wrote: It is. Make a poll on the Autodesk Website which license model the customer wants and provide the license model according to poll result.

Why? You don't need to chose one or the other. You can have both licensing models at the same time and if someone is willing to take the risk with the online activation license... good luck to him. I guess supporting both models has some bad drawbacks. Autodesk would have to maintain every version up to each customers level, and there is no way they can handle revisions of all the old versions. I think autodesk wants a flat version model, where all the focus goes into the next common release, and those who pay get to play.

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Joop14 Feb 23, 2017 1:43 AM (in response to rachaelp) 266. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 23:52 Actually if I were to choose I would much prefer the old license model, but it is not going to happen How do you know that? Six months ago they said "It's not going subscription". You say you are not affiliated to Autodesk but still you sound like you have more info than us. If (almost) nobody takes a subscription, they or the new owner have to revert back the license. Farnell did it and I believe autodesk or the new owner will do it as well. We just have to be more patient than them. -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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CadSoft Guest Feb 23, 2017 1:53 AM (in response to rbtx99) 267. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 23.02.2017 00:41, rbtx99 wrote: It is. Make a poll on the Autodesk Website which license model the customer wants and provide the license model according to poll result.

Why? You don't need to chose one or the other. Just to have statistics. To see that you piss off percent of the users right now. And to think about it when you see the actual figures. Markus

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CadSoft Guest Feb 23, 2017 1:53 AM (in response to rbtx99) 268. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 23.02.2017 00:41, rbtx99 wrote: It is. Make a poll on the Autodesk Website which license model the customer wants and provide the license model according to poll result.

Why? You don't need to chose one or the other. Just to have statistics. To see that you piss off percent of the users right now. And to think about it when you see the actual figures. Markus

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rachaelp Feb 23, 2017 1:53 AM (in response to Joop14) 269. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Joop_ wrote on Thu, 23 February 2017 07:42 rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 23:52

Actually if I were to choose I would much prefer the old license model, but it is not going to happen

How do you know that? Six months ago they said "It's not going subscription". You say you are not affiliated to Autodesk but still you sound like you have more info than us. Oh for goodness sake, I know nothing more than anybody else on here! I have just read every post here and on other forums and have seen the content and tone of the replies from the support guys like Jorge and Ed (whom I do trust) and they seem to be indicating that a big U turn by Autodesk is unlikely. Do what you like, I will do what I like, which is to NOT currently buy a subscription for v8 until it is a) stable and b) has significant new features like the new routing engine. I'm in no hurry, I have v7 and I can wait and see how things pan out. Rachael -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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rachaelp Feb 23, 2017 1:53 AM (in response to Joop14) 270. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Joop_ wrote on Thu, 23 February 2017 07:42 rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 23:52

Actually if I were to choose I would much prefer the old license model, but it is not going to happen

How do you know that? Six months ago they said "It's not going subscription". You say you are not affiliated to Autodesk but still you sound like you have more info than us. Oh for goodness sake, I know nothing more than anybody else on here! I have just read every post here and on other forums and have seen the content and tone of the replies from the support guys like Jorge and Ed (whom I do trust) and they seem to be indicating that a big U turn by Autodesk is unlikely. Do what you like, I will do what I like, which is to NOT currently buy a subscription for v8 until it is a) stable and b) has significant new features like the new routing engine. I'm in no hurry, I have v7 and I can wait and see how things pan out. Rachael -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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CadSoft Guest Feb 23, 2017 1:53 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 271. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 22.02.2017 18:07, Jorge Garcia wrote: Hey Morten, It's nice to hear from you glad you are still around here lurking. I know there is a lot of unknowns and fear right now. I know I've written this like a million times at this point but remember that you can subscribe for a month at a minimum so the cost to try out the new features isn't that bad (Full 16 layer version of EAGLE for $65.00 for one month). If I weigh this up against what I already have in 7.7, I cant find this cost justifying much. I have to wait until there are alot of new features, and I know that will take time. It is kinda sad that I won't be in the loop to give feedback, because I know I have a lot of knowledge and great wishes for the eagle future, at least from the advanced user perspective. Anyway, subscribing for a single month is out of the question for my kind of use. The new forum from Autodesk, is very nice. Definitely a lot better than E-14 but I know that's not saying much. When I first started using it, kicked me out a few times but I could still post and respond so not a big deal. I encourage you to check it out when you have a chance( 16 layer board, wow). I have been looking at it, and it looks "ok", but not better than nntp. There is too much space, too many images wanting your attention (ok, just a few, but still an infinite multiplum of none), no simple overview of all messages, too much empty space, too slow to open a message, ... If I spent more time analyzing, I could probably find more to whine about. 16 layers yes, I was even considering using more. In fact Eagle can do that(!), because a lot of the layers are plain reference ground for impedance and signal integrity. Since I got no blind or buried vias, I could have used the same layer to generate multiple reference planes in the CAM processor (or my own gerber export ULP). We really value Morten and all the users like him. I figure that right now most of our experienced users are waiting to see how this all pans out and I respect that, in your position I would do the same thing. I don't know where your core business is, but imo eagle is a tool for low to middle end small-medium sized boards, and I have been challenging its functions for the professional end, so I don't see myself as the typical user. If it wasnt for the ULP support and my programming knowledge, I would probably looked around for alternatives. Ed and I are still here and we intend to be here for the foreseeable future(in Rachel's terms). I know you are. I hope to stay too. I'm pretty sure I will, but I can't promise you I won't look around. Early in this acquistition process, the pricing was the potential thing that scared me most, and my fears came through. Afaics, only the recurrent full pricing is a real option to me, and that seems to be a significant increase. Autodesk seems to want another payment for all the old functionality over again (remember I already have it), or they price the new functionality very high. The discount for old customers doesn't make a great impact. Let us know if there's anything we can do for you. I could list a few, like comfort me, tell me why I should spend this money (or actually open the flow of money for an unknown period of time) when I already have v7. [The "already have v7 is important here] It will be a very expensive modular design block and soon obstacle avoidance (wich is cool, but not that important to me). Best Regards, Jorge Garcia 1 of 1 people found this helpful Actions

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CadSoft Guest Feb 23, 2017 2:02 AM (in response to rachaelp) 272. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

On 23.02.2017 08:50, Rachael wrote: Joop_ wrote on Thu, 23 February 2017 07:42

rachaelp wrote on Wed, 22 February 2017 23:52

Actually if I were to choose I would much prefer the old license model, but it is not going to happen

How do you know that? Six months ago they said "It's not going subscription". You say you are not affiliated to Autodesk but still you sound like you have more info than us.

Oh for goodness sake, I know nothing more than anybody else on here! I have just read every post here and on other forums and have seen the content and tone of the replies from the support guys like Jorge and Ed (whom I do trust) and they seem to be indicating that a big U turn by Autodesk is unlikely. Do what you like, I will do what I like, which is to NOT currently buy a subscription for v8 until it is a) stable and b) has significant new features like the new routing engine. I'm in no hurry, I have v7 and I can wait and see how things pan out. Rachael Rachael, I think they believe you are employed by autodesk/cadsoft becase of the amount of messages you put here

Don't you have some

routing to do? Yes, when I start to write, I realize I spend quite a bit of time on it too! Joop, there is a link to another forum where a user apparently being Matt claimed this. You can find the link somewhere else in this already too long thread.

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rachaelp Feb 23, 2017 2:13 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 273. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Morten Leikvoll wrote on Thu, 23 February 2017 08:01 Rachael, I think they believe you are employed by autodesk/cadsoft becase of the amount of messages you put here Don't you have some routing to do? :d Yes, when I start to write, I realize I spend quite a bit of time on it too! Yes that's a good point, I do actually have some routing I should go and do! -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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CadSoft Guest Feb 23, 2017 2:28 AM (in response to rachaelp) 274. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Am 22.02.2017 um 23:52 schrieb rachaelp: Actually if I were to choose I would much prefer the old license model, but it is not going to happen I don't think and what we have now is way better than what Farnell tried to do and at least now there is significant development resources going into improving EAGLE. I could get angry about the licensing but that wont solve anything so I am choosing to be positive about it and move forward. I can mitigate the negatives, and on balance it will cost me about the same as I will just have annual premium subscriptions which, factoring in upgrade cycles previously, works out about the same. Additionally, if I need any short term assistance and need a second license for a few months it works out a lot cheaper as I wont need to buy a complete second license Just a second subscription for a short period. Bedt Regards, Rachael I think autodesk have calculated this risk before: "If we increase the average price/month about 500%, we can lose ~70% of the old users and we earn more money than with that old license model." This is a typical decision behavior of big companies. Short thinking with quarterly financial statements. The next step is: "If we lose more than 80% we kill this Eagle experiment." Maybe the over next step of the loyal old users is to start a crowdfounding project to buy eagle back from autdesk. Andreas

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Joop14 Feb 23, 2017 3:48 AM (in response to rachaelp) 275. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

rachaelp wrote on Thu, 23 February 2017 08:50 ... and they seem to be indicating that a big U turn by Autodesk is unlikely. Unlikely but possible. And ofcourse they want to let believe us it's unlikely. Keep in mind that they are salesmen. They tell whatever they think is good for their business and their jobs. You can not trust them. -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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imm Feb 23, 2017 3:45 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 276. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Matt, " a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it). The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money. " Can you confirm how this works - is it as simple as an option from a pull down menu that activate & deactivates the subscription - if so then this would be very good! As a casual / contract person I use the software infrequently however I need the full Premium version when I do. In the past I have had to squeeze designs into smaller than ideal spaces and use less than the ideal number of layers just because there is insufficient work to justify the cost of the full software. It would be ideal if I could use and pay for the full software for only a few months a year - hey I also know retirees that would love this model giving them full features but only paying when they have a project going. Ian

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Joop14 Feb 23, 2017 3:48 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 277. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Andreas Fecht wrote on Thu, 23 February 2017 09:23 Maybe the over next step of the loyal old users is to start a crowdfounding project to buy eagle back from autdesk. I have been thinking about that as well. First we have to wait for a year to make autodesk realize their investment is lost. -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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rbtx99 Feb 23, 2017 4:56 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 278. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Maybe the over next step of the loyal old users is to start a crowdfounding project to buy eagle back from autdesk.

I doubt they are willing to do that. SolidWorks now has a PCB design option ( SOLIDWORKS PCB | Electrical Design Packages | SOLIDWORKS ) and I am guessing Autodesk bought EAGLE so they can catch up with that. I don't think their marketing decisions put much weight on the old EAGLE customers, they just wanted to add PCB design functionality to their product portfolio. This may or may not be a successful plan. I have yet to see any electronics engineer use SolidWorks for PCB design. Plus mechanical and electronics people have different favourites. You can't get an Altium or OrCaD engineer learn EAGLE because his mechanical engineer colleague wants him to.

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Jan Cumps Feb 23, 2017 6:41 AM (in response to Joop14) 279. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Guest wrote: ... And ofcourse they want to let believe us it's unlikely. Keep in mind that they are salesmen. They tell whatever they think is good for their business and their jobs. You can not trust them. -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets. and I guess that with this comment we've reached the bottom. It's bizarre what I'm reading in this thread.

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chris60601 Feb 23, 2017 8:09 AM (in response to Jan Cumps) 280. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

As I posted on another forum.... Consider this; what if AutoDesk "could" make the 7.7.0 version open to the community for support and development. A fork if you will. Find a happy medium for project size and layers, keep the Eagle Cad stamp on the application, keep licensing open and be done with it. As this version develops, AutoDesk could take features from this public version and incorporate into the licensed version. This could allow further development expansion for AD and allow further communication with the greater community by showing them that they have "skin in the game". In the end, this could sway the hard-line "perpetuals" to adopt the newer versions put out by AD. For folks or companies that want a "fuller" and supported version; they would pay for the AutoDesk stamped version along with the yearly "maintenance fee". Thoughts?

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Joop14 Feb 23, 2017 8:42 AM (in response to chris60601) 281. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Chris Silva wrote on Thu, 23 February 2017 14:52 Too bad Eagle Cad wasnt Open Source or maybe AutoDesk "could" make the 7.7.0 version open to the community for support and development. A fork if you will. Find a happy medium for size and layers and be done with it. Folks or companies that want the full version would simply pay for 8x and above. The price isn't the problem. The subscription is the problem. They don't even let you buy a license for the old V7 or V6 anymore. -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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geralds Feb 23, 2017 9:05 AM (in response to rachaelp) 282. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Rachael, Are you a pensioner? A lady or man? Because i saw that you here every time and you everywhere posts here. (since nov2015 nearly 25000 posts) and you'll staying at Eagle 7.7.0 and waits that Autodesk do something likely for you.... Best Regards, Gerald ---

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rachaelp Feb 23, 2017 9:14 AM (in response to geralds) 283. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Gerald Schwarz wrote: Hi Rachael, Are you a pensioner? A lady or man? Because i saw that you here every time and you everywhere posts here. (since nov2015 nearly 25000 posts) and you'll staying at Eagle 7.7.0 and waits that Autodesk do something likely for you.... Best Regards, Gerald -- Hi Gerald, I am a lady and no I am not a pensioner! I work from my home office and have these forums up regularly to keep up with what's going on. I don't have nearly 25000 posts, I have nearly 25000 points on Element14. My actual number of posts is considerably less. I actually joined EAGLECentral before Element14 so my posts on there started in March 2015. To date I have 502 posts in the EAGLE forums (EAGLECentral and Element14 EAGLE forums both sync to the CADSoft NNTP servers so are effectively the same content) but more than that in total on Element 14 as I also post in other areas on there. Still, likely to be around 1000 posts total I suspect although I don't know how I can calculate an exact figure on there. Best Regards, Rachael

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sauerwald Feb 23, 2017 10:55 AM (in response to imm) 284. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Ian I used to work in the broadcast video industry, and they have a model which works something like this. You can buy editing tools which run on firmware, and then rent, short-term, different options for your machine. In this way, I can have a business where I do some task on TV commercials, and when a client comes to me and wants me to do a job on his commercial which is in a different format from what I usually use, I can rent support for that format for a month, and I then have the full capability to support that client, for the term of that job. After that, I can still view, save, send the work, but can't edit it without renting that particular module again. The issue that I have is that if I move to Eagle 8, I am locking my future designs into a software tool for which I have to trust Autocad that I will have continued access. Autocad have broken promises recently, so that trust is not there, and that is what makes me hesitant to use anything beyond the Version 7 that I currently have a license for. Mark

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CadSoft Guest Feb 23, 2017 11:17 AM (in response to imm) 285. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 2/23/2017 4:45 AM, Ian Mackenzie wrote: Hi Matt, " a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled when you use the SW (so you only pay when you use it). The total cost of ownership for those folks using it less than a few weeks a year will thus be substantially lower and still enables you to access the full software for less money. " Can you confirm how this works - is it as simple as an option from a pull down menu that activate & deactivates the subscription - if so then this would be very good! As a casual / contract person I use the software infrequently however I need the full Premium version when I do. In the past I have had to squeeze designs into smaller than ideal spaces and use less than the ideal number of layers just because there is insufficient work to justify the cost of the full software. It would be ideal if I could use and pay for the full software for only a few months a year - hey I also know retirees that would love this model giving them full features but only paying when they have a project going. Ian -To view any images and attachments in this post, visit: https://www.element14.com/community/message/216583 Hello Ian, I hope you're doing well. Here's the process: 1. Visit http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/subscribe choose the monthly option you want (Standard or Premium) and click subscribe online. 2. In the next screen you select add to cart. 3. Now you can pick however many months you wish to buy of EAGLE use. 4. Continue with the rest of the process. Once the order has been processed (in many cases can be instantaneous, in the worst case a few hours). Your Autodesk account will have an entitlement for EAGLE. Open up the latest version of EAGLE 8 and sign into your Autodesk Account. Once the sign in is successful EAGLE will show that you have the version you paid for. If you run into issues contact support. Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia -We have a new forum here

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bvwj Feb 23, 2017 11:21 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 286. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

If you (Autodesk) are interested in my position on the license changes please follow me on a thought experiment. Imagine I run a medium sized software development company producing graphical software used to develop GUI elements. Now imagine that in this parallel universe I was able to purchase the text editor / IDE / compiler system Autodesk has used to develop their software for the last 10 years. It should be clear where I am going, but perhaps I can add some additional insight. Obviously I update the licensing terms to a subscription model and require you to check in with my license server every two weeks. I also require you to upgrade on my schedule and disallow use of non-current versions. Are you pleased with this new arrangement? Do any of these statements make you happy about this new arrangement (or even less angry)? 1. The license will cost less than a cup of coffee each day per seat (for now). 2. There is a free version where you can see all your source code (but you still have to check in with our server). You can even edit the first 1000 lines! 3. You can use the free version to compile executables smaller than 256MB. (As long as you don't sell those executables.) 4. There will be exciting new features. (Remember I also told you we wouldn't move to subscription.) 5. You can cancel your subscriptions and re-subscribe as often as you like to reduce the overall cost. 6. Overall this is going to save you money. (But we won't even offer you the presumably more expensive legacy license terms.) 7. We are going to integrate these tools with our other graphical development software. (Which you don't use.) 8. The license system is fully functional and has no bugs so stop complaining about the license system. 9. Microsoft and Adobe have very successful subscription operations. 10. There may be ways for awhile to use the any newly developed source code with your previously licensed tool set version. (We won't sell any more licenses of that old version.) I expect you are frightened by my mythical company's attempt to control a key aspect of your development process. Take a breath. Keep in mind that in this parallel universe there exist free development tools that may require some training. There are also much more capable tools that cost more but whose licensing leaves you much more in control of your destiny. Would Autodesk sign up for my subscription offering? One more exercise: Now you are not Autodesk. Imagine you are a small startup, a hobbyist, or a company who only develops software part time in support of other products. Should I expect any of these other customers to embrace my new licensing model for my software development tools? Now we are back. You are Autodesk and I was your customer. I hope you can see why I will never give you this control over my business.

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CadSoft Guest Feb 23, 2017 11:32 AM (in response to e14candies) 287. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 2/22/2017 7:46 PM, Hoyt wrote: posted : Actually if I were to choose I would much prefer the old license model, but it is not going to happen Why would it not happen? What would prevent it? Autodesk is giving upon Eagle business already?? I'm not sure what the difficulty Autodesk has in reverting to the standard Eagle license. They can still offer a subscription. Hello Hoyt, I hope you're having a good day. Autodesk is not giving up on EAGLE at all, that's why so much work . However Autodesk has almost 3 million subscribers of their software, so they have demonstrated that the model works and that there are a lot of customers who like the model. In order for Autodesk to back off of this subscription for everything(Every Autodesk product has moved to subscription for new licenses) model a substantial portion of those 3 million subscribers would have to drop out. So your reasoning while sound doesn't take into account that Autodesk is much larger than just EAGLE and it's extremely unlikely that they would make an exception just for us. It's not about a technical challenge, it's about Autodesk wanting a uniform model across all of it's products. That's why in this and in other forums, I've been informing users not to expect a change in the licensing model. This isn't Farnell, Autodesk is a software company and they have carefully calculated what they are getting into by making this switch. I hope this clarifies the situation. Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia -We have a new forum here

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geralds Feb 23, 2017 11:33 AM (in response to bvwj) 288. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Yep,

fully agree!

GOOOOAAL!!! - which gate? .... Best Regards, Gerald ---

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CadSoft Guest Feb 23, 2017 11:42 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 289. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Am 23.02.2017 um 18:29 schrieb Jorge Garcia: So your reasoning while sound doesn't take into account that Autodesk is much larger than just EAGLE and it's extremely unlikely that they would make an exception just for us. It's not about a technical challenge, it's about Autodesk wanting a uniform model across all of it's products. So it was meant to go subscription from the very beginning. You were intentionally misleading us. Applause! Thank you very much!

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geralds Feb 23, 2017 11:59 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 290. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Jorge, at the subscription bindings, is there no discount between 1 to 3 years of bindings? EAGLE Subscription | Buy Autodesk EAGLE | Autodesk The monthly subscription is most expensive, then by one year we get discount, after that nothing? Best Regards, Gerald ---

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rachaelp Feb 23, 2017 12:07 PM (in response to geralds) 291. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Gerald Schwarz wrote: Hi Jorge, at the subscription bindings, is there no discount between 1 to 3 years of bindings? EAGLE Subscription | Buy Autodesk EAGLE | Autodesk The monthly subscription is most expensive, then by one year we get discount, after that nothing? Best Regards, Gerald --I was wondering that too.... I'd also like it if the discount for existing v7 subscribers was able to be applied to the 3 year subscription and not just the 1 year subscription which I think is the current limitation, although I am not sure as I never received any details of the arrangement. As far as I am concerned there should be incentives for buying a 3 year subscription, after all you are giving Autodesk more money up front so there should be some pay back for that.... Best Regards, Rachael

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geralds Feb 23, 2017 12:16 PM (in response to rachaelp) 292. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Yes, and we have the next fundamental problem: 30 day money back guaranty. But, what happens if i wish to unsubscribe after two month, or half year, year (by 3 y subs.) .... get i back the rest of unused money? That's a lot of money what i lose... Gerald ---

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rachaelp Feb 23, 2017 12:19 PM (in response to geralds) 293. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Gerald Schwarz wrote: Yes, and we have the next fundamental problem: 30 day money back guaranty. But, what happens if i wish to unsubscribe after two month, or half year, year (by 3 y subs.) .... get i back the rest of unused money? That's a lot of money what i lose... Gerald --I think if you are thinking you might want to cancel after 2 months then then 1 or 3 year subscriptions are probably not right for you.

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CadSoft Guest Feb 23, 2017 12:27 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 294. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Quote: So your reasoning while sound doesn't take into account that Autodesk is much larger than just EAGLE and it's extremely unlikely that they would make an exception just for us. As I observed in http://www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/mv/msg/52902/169544/d2cdb3a59e8b8ccb66baa40198073e53/#msg_169544 "EAGLE is now just another tool from a big corporation". Quote:

,

Autodesk has almost 3 million subscribers of their software, so they have demonstrated that the model works and that there are a lot of customers who like the model. I would have thought there were a lot more than 3 million. There are "more than 4 million engineers in the EAGLE online PCB community" alone. See http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/features/online-pcb-community Quote: Features Connect with the largest online PCB community Get the answers you need and learn along the way from more than 4 million engineers in the EAGLE online PCB community. I'm not saying Autodesk is evil, I just think it's big and impersonal and that's a huge change for us EAGLE people. We're just x number out of 3,000,000 at Autodesk, where we used to be x of x at Cadsoft. Sigh... -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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CadSoft Guest Feb 23, 2017 12:37 PM (in response to geralds) 295. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 2/23/2017 12:59 PM, Gerald Schwarz wrote: Hi Jorge, at the subscription bindings, is there no discount between 1 to 3 years of bindings? EAGLE Subscription | Buy Autodesk EAGLE | Autodesk (http://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/subscribe The monthly subscription is most expensive, then by one year we get discount, after that nothing? Best Regards, Gerald -- -To view any images and attachments in this post, visit: https://www.element14.com/community/message/216671

)

Hi Gerald, I hope you're doing well. I got some information about this. What I was instructed to do is to have any customers with pricing questions go here: https://knowledge.autodesk.com/contact-support/purchases-returns/buying-autodesk-software Pricing at Autodesk is handled by a totally different department, so any such inquiries have to go through them. That's all of the info I have. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia -We have a new forum here

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brentbolton Feb 23, 2017 1:14 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 296. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Jorge, "So your reasoning while sound doesn't take into account that Autodesk is much larger than just EAGLE and it's extremely unlikely that they would make an exception just for us. It's not about a technical challenge, it's about Autodesk wanting a uniform model across all of it's products." Thank you for confirming what I and many others on this forum suspected. The new license model is all about what's best for Autodesk, not what's best for us users. That comes across as a giant F*** You to this formerly loyal EagleCAD user. KiCAD, Altium, here I come. Brent

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roycearnold Feb 23, 2017 2:13 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 297. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

CadSoft Guest wrote: In order for Autodesk to back off of this subscription for everything(Every Autodesk product has moved to subscription for new licenses) model a substantial portion of those 3 million subscribers would have to drop out. Jorge, Would you please break down that 3 million subscribers? I may be one of them but I have a Maintenance Subscription not the Desktop Subscription. For the users on Maintenance Subscription, we still have perpetual license rights. That is the sole reason, I'm still providing any money to AutoDesk. It goes and I'm gone (after 25+ years as a user). Actually we are gone because we have 2 licenses. Alas, Maintenance Subscription are no longer sold unless you are grandfathered in to them and only on certain products. Now, if what you said is true that the vast majority of users are satisfied with the new subscription model, why is AutoDesk still offering the maintenance subscription model? I felt compelled to respond, because I'm not sure everyone is aware of the existence of Maintenance Subscription with Perpetual license rights. And since they are both referred to as subscriptions, your 3 million probably included both. Without knowing the breakdown, your statement is hard to evaluate. Please do not get me wrong, I understand AutoDesk's position. Their primary goal is NOT to make a good product. Their goal is to provide a profitable company to their shareholders. The 2 may overlap in some regards, but do not in all. Someone at AutoDesk probably had an Epiphany a few years ago. They likely could see that some of their products were becoming harder and harder to innovate and becoming fully mature or would be in the near future. Naturally, sales will fall when that happens as the product does everything or mostly everything that is needed. Not currently the case with Eagle. But when a product reaches that life stage what do you do to maintain it's profitability... Subscriptions are the answer. You can now continue to charge indefinitely for a mature product. This only works if you are the dominate player in the market or the other key competitors adopt the same business model. Assuming there is a relatively constant need for a product, you now have a constant revenue stream which requires minimal continued development. The financial bottom line can be expanded by raising the prices of the subscription and retasking the development resources on other product (new or less mature products, like Eagle). It's a GREAT business model if you are on the AutoDesk side. I honestly do not expect AutoDesk subscription policy to change in regards to Eagle or their other products. I honestly wish and hope it would, but I've already started evaluating alternatives for all of my AutoDesk products. Why? As I and others have stated, the new model requires us to relinquish too much control to AutoDesk. I also understand that for some companies the Desktop Subscription model is attractive from a tax / accounting standpoint (at least in the US) since the entire cost of the license can be expensed in the year of purchase vs depreciated over a period of years. For larger organizations that can be a significant positive. For smaller organization, there are other concerns that may out weigh that positive. Eagle seems like an oddball to me in this regard when compared to other Autodesk products. By that I mean, it seems that the majority of the Eagle users would fall into the small business / hobbyist group while the other AutoDesk products probably have a greater number of large corporation type users. I know that you and the other AutoDesk support personnel are probably getting tired of our complaints. But complaining and refusing to upgrade are the only avenues for us to let someone know that we are seriously dissatisfied. Only by all of us voicing our negative views can be hope to equal a larger AutoDesk client who might have a $100,000 dollar account versus our $1000 individual accounts. (disclaimer: those last 2 numbers pulled from thin air). By the way, is it just me or has the forum traffic far eclipsed the negative reaction from Farnell's license change? Sincerely, Royce

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Ed Robledo Feb 23, 2017 2:01 PM (in response to brentbolton) 298. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Brent Bolton wrote: Thank you for confirming what I and many others on this forum suspected. The new license model is all about what's best for Autodesk, not what's best for us users. That comes across as a giant F*** You to this formerly loyal EagleCAD user. KiCAD, Altium, here I come. Brent Hi Brent, I don't think that is what they are saying, its more of adapting a business model that is successfully is working. A model that allows users to begin designing at reasonable price point, then the user can control their entitlement during idle times but still have full access to view and export. There was no intention to disrespect our long time users, it was a matter of what can be done to satisfy the large flow of requested features and tools without raising the entry price. Best Regards, Ed EAGLE Forum 1 of 1 people found this helpful Actions

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geralds Feb 23, 2017 2:19 PM (in response to Ed Robledo) 299. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Ed, please read page 13, to 17 in this forum... not the price or subscription is the problem... Then i suggested 4 points: https://www.element14.com/community/message/216243/l/re-eagle-v8-licensing#216243 https://www.element14.com/community/message/216304/l/re-eagle-v8-licensing#216304 https://www.element14.com/community/message/216382/l/re-eagle-v8-licensing#216382 https://www.element14.com/community/message/216459/l/re-eagle-v8-licensing#216459 Best Regards, Gerald ---

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brentbolton Feb 23, 2017 3:03 PM (in response to Ed Robledo) 300. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Ed, I don't think you're really paying attention to what's being said here. Adopting a business model that successfully works for you but not your users is pointless. There are many other business models that would let you pour more resources into development while not shafting your user base. For instance, the unbundling model where you charge basically the same price for a version that has essentially the v7.x features, and then premiums over that for versions with more advanced features. Further, it's not really about the price. You have competitors that offer perpetual licenses at certain price points. That will force you to always charge a "reasonable" price set by the market. So I'm not worried about that. What I am worried about is my business being held hostage by Autodesk. For example, I have a many projects that I've done sitting "in the can" in case a customer comes back and wants some variant of one. Say, a few years from now there's some fantastic new CAD package that all my new customers are demanding. I switch to that and now I only need Eagle for that legacy work occasionally. But now I've got to keep paying Autodesk for their continuing improvements that I will never need. Further, the phone home to a server every 2 weeks feature gives me the willies. I don't want to have to depend on the existence of any computer other than my own when my income is riding on it working. Sorry, but your business model carries too much risk for my taste, so as I've said many times, no thanks. Brent

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roycearnold Feb 23, 2017 3:16 PM (in response to brentbolton) 301. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Brent, 100% agree. I'm in a similar situation as you. Existing design that have to be maintained for years. In fact, I have a couple of old OrCAD designs (10+ years old) that I still have to maintain on an infrequent basis (maybe once every year or two). I have an ancient copy of OrCAD sitting in a Windows 2000 VM just to manage those designs. Operating right next it is the software development package that can no longer be activated because the company is no longer around (well they are but have changed hands and no longer offer any support). I'm only still able to use the later because I got it into a VM while I could still get it activated. Both packages are dead for me as far as new designs are concerned, but still have value to support the existing design. If they were under the new AutoDesk subscription model, I would have to pay access either. Royce

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brentbolton Feb 23, 2017 3:48 PM (in response to roycearnold) 302. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Thanks Royce, I'm sure we not the only ones. I used to work in technical marketing for a semiconductor company. Our departments job was to ask our customers what they wanted and then do our best to make sure the company gave it to them. That company is now 100 times or more the size of Autodesk. I hope someone from their executive suite is getting this feedback. If they don't learn the lesson that you always need to put the customer first, the company is doomed to failure or perpetual mediocrity. Brent

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Jan Cumps Feb 23, 2017 4:28 PM (in response to brentbolton) 303. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Brent Bolton wrote: Thanks Royce, I'm sure we not the only ones. I used to work in technical marketing for a semiconductor company. Our departments job was to ask our customers what they wanted and then do our best to make sure the company gave it to them. That company is now 100 times or more the size of Autodesk. I hope someone from their executive suite is getting this feedback. If they don't learn the lesson that you always need to put the customer first, the company is doomed to failure or perpetual mediocrity. Brent You will have listened to the customers to give them the product they needed. I bet you didn't let them dictate your pricing policy.

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drkirkby Feb 23, 2017 4:52 PM (in response to brentbolton) 304. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Brent Bolton wrote: Thank you for confirming what I and many others on this forum suspected. The new license model is all about what's best for Autodesk, not what's best for us users. That comes across as a giant F*** You to this formerly loyal EagleCAD user. KiCAD, Altium, here I come. Brent Ultimately any companies main aim is to make money, so attempting to maximise the revenue is to be expected. Companies will not make money unless they have a product or service to sell. Generally speaking, software costs money to develop. Even KiCad, despite being open-source, is not developed for free. There are a number of paid developers, with CERN putting in a lot of money, but one can donate too. https://giving.web.cern.ch/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=6&gclid=CjwKEAiArbrFBRDL4Oiz97GP2nISJAAmJMFaR4C71dl9C_… (I'm a bit skeptical of donating my companies money. I think that might give me tax issues here in the UK. I guess it would have to be a personal donation). Based on that, to donate a days KiCad developer time, you need to donate 480 Swiss Francs CHF), which given the exchange rate is almost 1 USD = 1 CHF, it is $480 USD. Sure there will be some developers who are unpaid, but given all the comments about KiCad improving dramatically since CERN started putting money into it, one can probably conclude that the software improved because of the paid developers. Ultimately, if you don't like a license model, then walk away. There are plenty of options. Someone I know finds Sprint very good, and worth the $50 or so. He prefers it to KiCad. As for Rachel's comments about Autodesk having multiple servers, so even earthquakes will not cause problems checking out a license, I think there are more serious risks than earthquakes. * As I noted earlier, a Barings Bank that had been trading for over 300 years was bankrupted by one single employee. The same could happen to Autodesk. * Autodesk could just decide to discontinue the product. * All many of other reasons. Dave

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CadSoft Guest Feb 23, 2017 5:43 PM (in response to drkirkby) 305. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

David Kirkby wrote on Thu, 23 February 2017 15:52 As I noted earlier, a Barings Bank that had been trading for over 300 years was bankrupted by one single employee. The same could happen to Autodesk. Autodesk could just decide to discontinue the product. One of the nice things about the EAGLE file format (since version 6 at least) is that it is easy to read. I've already written a program that opens an EAGLE file, reads it and can parse the XML. (I even posted a couple of my early experiments http://www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/m/156145/6f8dbdb16391f7c28db5b12f3dbae997/?srch=python#msg_156145 If anything happens to EAGLE or Autodesk, we'll still be able to access our EAGLE files, if only to convert them to some other package. -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

.)

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CadSoft Guest Feb 23, 2017 6:33 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 306. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 00:29:12 +0100, Markus Rudolf < [email protected]> wrote: Ah wait.... Democracy has issues in the US recently... Can't let this one slip by. Since the US is a represenative republic and (thank God) NOT a democracy, your attempt at sarcasm only shows your ignorance of our system of government. A democracy is 4 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for supper. John John DeArmond http://www.neon-john.com http://www.tnduction.com Tellico Plains, Occupied TN See website for email address

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brentbolton Feb 23, 2017 6:47 PM (in response to Jan Cumps) 307. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Jan, No the customers didn't dictate our pricing. In the semiconductor industry price constantly declines while capability increases. And no company will shut down your chip after 3 years if you didn't keep paying up. And little of our business was due to product wearing out. It was almost all voluntary upgrades or new purchases because we constantly improved our value proposition. This will be my last post beating the dead Autodesk horse. I've got to go do some design work with v7.5 and think about who my next CAD vendor will be. Nice debating you all and best wishes to you whatever you decide. Brent

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mcb1 Feb 23, 2017 10:11 PM (in response to rachaelp) 308. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Are you a pensioner? A lady or man? I think you should change and keep him happy. What sort of question is that ...? 2 of 2 people found this helpful Actions

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geralds Feb 24, 2017 2:56 AM (in response to mcb1) 309. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_11#Lunar_surface_operations Gerald ---

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mcb1 Feb 24, 2017 3:21 AM (in response to geralds) 310. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Sorry I'm failing to see a connection between you asking

rachaelp a very strange question, and a moon landing.

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geralds Feb 24, 2017 5:11 AM (in response to mcb1) 311. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

"May the force be with you!" ---

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Ed Robledo Feb 24, 2017 9:49 AM (in response to brentbolton) 312. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Brent, 'snip What I am worried about is my business being held hostage by Autodesk. For example, I have a many projects that I've done sitting "in the can" in case a customer comes back and wants some variant of one. Say, a few years from now there's some fantastic new CAD package that all my new customers are demanding. I switch to that and now I only need Eagle for that legacy work occasionally. But now I've got to keep paying Autodesk for their continuing improvements that I will never need. Further, the phone home to a server every 2 weeks feature gives me the willies. I don't want to have to depend on the existence of any computer other than my own when my income is riding on it working. Sorry, but your business model carries too much risk for my taste, so as I've said many times, no thanks. Brent With the current model, you don't have to be paying continuously, during your idle times you can use the free version as a viewer. If you need to do some legacy work, then enable your license entitlement for the necessary time. If you want the latest tools you can download and install, if you don't want the new tools continue working with whatever version you have. Updates are not pushed, the user is only informed about them. If you do download load them they will install into new folder, not affecting any previous versions installs. TMI: "I have a many projects that I've done sitting "in the can" Best Regards, Ed EAGLE Forums 1 of 1 people found this helpful Actions

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albertovignati Feb 24, 2017 10:42 AM (in response to Ed Robledo) 313. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Ed, Brent talks about risks (I totally agree with him) and you answer about costs. On the economic side you are saying to pay for use an old version to maintain old projects, right? This is another reason for which subscription model is absolutely inacceptable! On the economic side, if V8 were perpetual I would just upgraded, even at the full price... But it seems that you do not want my money and prefere to make me angry. I am sure you understand perfectly our reason, I can imagine your position, but you have to do your job. I (We) will fight for a while, maybe something changes, but one day I (we) will have to take a decision and, if nothing change, this means to leave Eagle. At the moment I am using Eagle only for maintenance or little projects, as a big project will start I will move to other tools; at that point no way to come back. It is a pity, since I am a long term user and I have not other reason to change except license model. Best regards Alberto Il 24/02/2017 16:49, Ed Robledo ha scritto: Hi Brent,

'snip What I am worried about is my business being held hostage by Autodesk. For example, I have a many projects that I've done sitting "in the can" in case a customer comes back and wants some variant of one. Say, a few years from now there's some fantastic new CAD package that all my new customers are demanding. I switch to that and now I only need Eagle for that legacy work occasionally. But now I've got to keep paying Autodesk for their continuing improvements that I will never need. Further, the phone home to a server every 2 weeks feature gives me the willies. I don't want to have to depend on the existence of any computer other than my own when my income is riding on it working. Sorry, but your business model carries too much risk for my taste, so as I've said many times, no thanks. Brent

With the current model, you don't have to be paying continuously, during your idle times you can use the free version as a viewer. If you need to do some legacy work, then enable your license entitlement for the necessary time. If you want the latest tools you can download and install, if you don't want the new tools continue working with whatever version you have. Updates are not pushed, the user is only informed about them. If you do download load them they will install into new folder, not affecting any previous versions installs. TMI: "I have a many projects that I've done sitting "in the can" Best Regards, Ed EAGLE Forums (https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/bd-p/3500http:// ) -To view any images and attachments in this post, visit: https://www.element14.com/community/message/216737

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CadSoft Guest Feb 24, 2017 11:37 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 314. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 2/23/2017 2:53 AM, Morten Leikvoll wrote: Let us know if there's anything we can do for you.

I could list a few, like comfort me, tell me why I should spend this money (or actually open the flow of money for an unknown period of time) when I already have v7. [The "already have v7 is important here] It will be a very expensive modular design block and soon obstacle avoidance (wich is cool, but not that important to me). Hey Morten, The reality is that it's your money, so don't feel like you have to part ways with it now if you are not fully convinced that it is going to be worth it. I see that so far the new features still aren't enough for you and that's cool. EAGLE's pace of development has increased greatly and it's not going to take a long time to get the features that have been promised in. Like I mentioned on the Autodesk Forums, it is now up to us to earn the business of our customers by improving EAGLE and adding features that will compel you to go subscription. That is our goal, and for whatever it's worth, despite the licensing change, I see EAGLE finally growing and getting the development that it has long deserved. The next few months are going to be interesting, and since you'll be checking in you'll be seeing it. Hang tight and as always let me know if there's anything else I can do for you. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia -We have a new forum here

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drkirkby Feb 24, 2017 12:16 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 315. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

CadSoft Guest wrote: One of the nice things about the EAGLE file format (since version 6 at least) is that it is easy to read. I've already written a program that opens an EAGLE file, reads it and can parse the XML. (I even posted a couple of my early experiments http://www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/m/156145/6f8dbdb16391f7c28db5b12f3dbae997/?srch=python#msg_156145.) If anything happens to EAGLE or Autodesk, we'll still be able to access our EAGLE files, if only to convert them to some other package. -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets. Yes, that's a valid point. I see there are a number of Eagle to $other_PCB_package around, but all seem to have some issues, and not do a perfect translation. I've met this problem many times with other software. Mathematica had some significant changes in version 6, and had a converter to convert files from versions 5 or lower to version 6. In practice it was only partially successful. It would be nice if OpenOffice was 100% compatible with Word files, but in practice it is not. Dave

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drkirkby Feb 24, 2017 1:07 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 316. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

A suggestion that want to get the license of Eagle changed 1) Make a donation to KiCad, via CERN (European Organization for Nuclear Research), The minimum donation is 20 Swiss Francs, which is just under $20. https://giving.web.cern.ch/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=6 2) Leave your name - don't make the donation anonymous. 3) Write to the CEO of Autodesk, saying you are thinking of switching to KiCad, and show you have donated to the KiCad project, but say will stick with Eagle if the license decision is reversed. Whilst I can see some attractions for a company in having one license model for all products, it is too simplistic to assume that the same model is fit for all, especially if those products are aimed at different market sectors. A license model that is appropriate for software that's going to be sold to large corporations, may well be inappropriate for software that's going to be used by the hobbyist/small business market. Personally I can't see how this sort of license model is good for anything other than videos, music, games software, or anything else where loss of access is not going to have a major impact. BTW, if you run Eagle >= 8 in a virtual machine, I suspect you can stop it "phoning home" indefinitely. The program is not going to know what the date is, as long as the clock in the machine is set back before you start the program. Dave

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CadSoft Guest Feb 24, 2017 1:47 PM (in response to drkirkby) 317. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

David Kirkby wrote on Fri, 24 February 2017 12:07 A suggestion that want to get the license of Eagle changed Look at the direction Autodesk is going in as a corporation. EAGLE is only a (small) part of that corporation... If this was EEVBlog, I'd insert "beating a dead horse". -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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Jan Cumps Feb 24, 2017 2:09 PM (in response to drkirkby) 318. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Are you going to work with unlicensed software as a professional designer? You make your own customers liable in that case.

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levafreidin Feb 24, 2017 3:39 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 319. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Just make my opinion stronger: they bought the EAGLE to kill the competitions. How many products disappear after another BIG company, "Microsoft", bought them? Lev Freidin.

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technolomaniac Feb 24, 2017 4:05 PM (in response to drkirkby) 320. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

@David Kirkby: Are you advocating breaking the license & stealing the software? Just curious. Best regards, Matt - Autodesk.

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rbtx99 Feb 24, 2017 4:41 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 321. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Matt Berggren wrote: @David Kirkby: Are you advocating breaking the license & stealing the software? Just curious. Best regards, Matt - Autodesk. Actually I am hopping that someone will manage to break the license. Not because I want to use the unlicensed copy, but because only when I can install it and run without online activation I will have confidence to use EAGLE for my work. It would be my fallback plan if you like for when you lose interest and abandon us unable to access our work.

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levafreidin Feb 24, 2017 5:10 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 322. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Next phrase does not belong to me:

" Actually I am hoping that someone will do it. Not because I want to use the unlicensed copy, but because only when I can install it and run without online activation I will have confidence to use EAGLE for my work. It would be my fall-back plan if you like for when you lose interest and abandon us unable to access out work." Again, I did not say it (sentence above). Why you sent the e-mail to me? But I have another solution of the problem: I already bought AuloTRAX" (it imports "EAGLE" library and projects) ($49); I installed "KiCAD" (free); I installed "PCB Artist" (free); I install demo version of "DipTrace" (full cost $1200 about). Next step is to check and select more suitable for me software. I think "KiCAD" would be most stable and growing, but I have to try. Best regards, Lev Freidin, Electronics Engineer.

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geralds Feb 24, 2017 6:07 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 323. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi Matt, have you ever read my posts here? 1) Autodesk sells something Eagle does not yet have, but Autodesk is pushing us to pay a year before it will be developed later in the year. 2) Autodesk pushes us to buy a toy software, because at the end of the license the Eagle falls back to a a toy version called "free version". 3) Some employees (previously also of Cadsoft) of Autodesk seem to be a liar because they have said something last year, but now have a complete 180 ° rotated statement, appeased to urge them what Autodesk prescribes. Matt, did you read my suggestions, the 4 points I posted here in this thread? I have to take Eagle at the time because a change is much more expensive. But the software of the competition has already advanced over 15 - 20 years advanced software, which Autodesk wants to catch up in the 21st century. All extra tools that Eagle provides, such as 3D view, component database, router quality, must be paid in advance at Autodesk, which are already installed as standard in the software. But.... Eagle has nice functions, but...... I appeal to think seriously about customer-friendliness. It's YOUR - Autodesk risk if you can't write a well software. If i like to buy a software, not just Eagle, i look for functions that it have right now, not sometime in the future!!!! "hopefully" !!!??!! We can also reckon, also understand business mathematics. I look forward to Eagle V9, V10, V???..... can it be happen? Best Regards, Gerald ----

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CadSoft Guest Feb 24, 2017 6:22 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 324. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Matt Berggren wrote on Fri, 24 February 2017 15:05 Best regards, Matt - Autodesk. Nice of you to pop back in Matt. Are you going to answer my questions about your claim that Autodesk operates all of these servers? http://www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/mv/msg/53384/169470/b5a59619d668d7d428929436c36e1c27/#msg_169470 https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/eagle-forum/matt-please-substantiate-your-claim/td-p/6888773 We've had a reply from Element 14 already... -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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drkirkby Feb 24, 2017 7:03 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 325. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Matt Berggren wrote: @David Kirkby: Are you advocating breaking the license & stealing the software? Just curious. Best regards, Matt - Autodesk. Matt, Given the VERY real risks with the licensing scheme, I would not wish to put any effort into using a product I know could stop working at any minute. I would want a "plan B", if Autodesk folded (less likely), or dropped support for the product (much more likely), I'd want a way out. For what it is worth, there's a huge list of obsoleted Autodesk products at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autodesk#Discontinued_products So why should I have confidence Eagle would not go the same way? rbtx99 sums it up with "Actually I am hopping that someone will manage to break the license. Not because I want to use the unlicensed copy, but because only when I can install it and run without online activation I will have confidence to use EAGLE for my work. It would be my fallback plan if you like for when you lose interest and abandon us unable to access our work." I would feel exactly the same myself. Luckily I don't have time invested in Eagle, so unlike some I am less bothered about this license. It just strikes me as a crazy one, and I feel very sorry for the people caught up in it all. For me, KiCad is much more attractive. No vendor lock-in. Quite honestly Matt, I'm fairly certain IF I wanted to, (which I do not), I could get a free trial of Eagle and use the program indefinitely without paying a penny. But the truth is even if Autodesk offered me 50 years of support on the product, without paying another penny, I would not invest any time in it. It is simply too risky. If you want to offer me £10.000 if I can prove it could be hacked, then I'd take up the challenge, but otherwise I am not interested. Even if I hacked it, collected the £10,000, I would still not use it. Dave

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drkirkby Feb 24, 2017 7:13 PM (in response to Jan Cumps) 326. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Jan Cumps wrote: Are you going to work with unlicensed software as a professional designer? You make your own customers liable in that case. No I am not going to work with unlicensed software. KiCad is much more attractive to me. But if I did use software that could stop working, I'd want a backup, in just the same way as I have a backup in case my hard disk fails. The expression "Don't put all ones eggs in one basket" comes tom mind. Dave

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clem57 Feb 24, 2017 8:42 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 327. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

The storm I said was coming has turned into a full fledged hurricane.

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drkirkby Feb 24, 2017 9:06 PM (in response to geralds) 328. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Gerald Schwarz wrote: 3) Some employees (previously also of Cadsoft) of Autodesk seem to be a liar because they have said something last year, but now have a complete 180 ° rotated statement, appeased to urge them what Autodesk prescribes. Best Regards, Gerald ---It is unreasonable to say someone is a liar over this. They probably said it with the best intentions in the world, believing it to be true, but later someone else made a decision different to what they expected. Dave

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macegr Feb 26, 2017 2:02 AM (in response to clem57) 329. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I wonder how long it will take them to realize the truth: Yes, the people who actively post on forums about Eagle, and care about licensing, are greatly in the minority. Yes, there are many people who will just not care, and buy the subscription. However, those people WERE TOLD ABOUT EAGLE by us, the vocal minority. We have a disproportionate impact on the market. Eagle, and Autodesk, do not have the momentum necessary to succeed without the support of the users, like myself, who recommended Eagle to their colleagues and invested valuable time helping those people learn to use Eagle.

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KE5FX Feb 26, 2017 3:47 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 330. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 2/23/2017 9:29 AM, Jorge Garcia wrote: I hope you're having a good day. Autodesk is not giving up on EAGLE at all, that's why so much work . However Autodesk has almost 3 million subscribers of their software, so they have demonstrated that the model works and that there are a lot of customers who like the model. Question for you (or anyone else who knows) -- how many other Autodesk products, besides EAGLE, use a product-specific file format (whether documented or not) that no other industry-standard tools are compatible with? In other words, how many of those 3 million customers are being held hostage by Autodesk the way EAGLE users are now, with no alternative but to continue their subscriptions if they want to keep doing business... and with no assurance that they'll be able to install and use the software over the next several years at any price? -- john

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dukepro Feb 27, 2017 7:08 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 331. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 01/18/2017 02:26 PM, Matt Berggren wrote: Hi All - Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether. Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback: Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription ... Matt, Do you think it would be reasonable to escrow the software build kit (source, compilers, builders, etc.) of each release, such that it be released under GPL or LPGL should certain circumstances arrive, circumstances such as some of those that have been aired in this thread? However remote the possibility of such conditions, an escrow would nonetheless be sort of a life insurance policy for Eagle. Doing so may allay many of the hostage fears, and would present a path forward for customers should Autodesk decide to drop Eagle. This would allow an open source group to take over maintenance and development. I also ponder how many, if any, of those that are currently "no-go" would reconsider if this were done. Just a thought... - Chuck

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rbtx99 Feb 27, 2017 9:06 AM (in response to dukepro) 332. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Chuck Huber wrote: On 01/18/2017 02:26 PM, Matt Berggren wrote: Hi All - Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether. Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback: Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription ... Matt, Do you think it would be reasonable to escrow the software build kit (source, compilers, builders, etc.) of each release, such that it be released under GPL or LPGL should certain circumstances arrive, circumstances such as some of those that have been aired in this thread? However remote the possibility of such conditions, an escrow would nonetheless be sort of a life insurance policy for Eagle. Doing so may allay many of the hostage fears, and would present a path forward for customers should Autodesk decide to drop Eagle. This would allow an open source group to take over maintenance and development. I also ponder how many, if any, of those that are currently "no-go" would reconsider if this were done. Just a thought... - Chuck First of all I doubt they would want to do that. There is a £200 product that I discontinued and subsequently I was able to get more than £50K additional work to just customise it for a customer. IP always has value even when you discontinue the product. There is always someone who needs it, you just need to find each other. Secondly, the escrow may not be able to act if Autodesk declares they still have interest in the IP, etc. Even if that takes few months to resolve it can have a huge effect to our business. What do I tell my customers? "You just need to wait until someone kind enough finds how to remove the license managers and recompile EAGLE from sources, then we can work on your project". We need EAGLE ready to run, every single day.

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drkirkby Feb 27, 2017 10:08 AM (in response to dukepro) 333. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Chuck Huber wrote: On 01/18/2017 02:26 PM, Matt Berggren wrote: Hi All - Moving this to a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in the ether. Here's my two cents on licensing and I'd love your feedback: Firstly, the Autodesk licensing model is subscription ... Matt, Do you think it would be reasonable to escrow the software build kit (source, compilers, builders, etc.) of each release, such that it be released under GPL or LPGL should certain circumstances arrive, circumstances such as some of those that have been aired in this thread? Just a thought... - Chuck I don't think that would happen, as someone else said. Sun Microsystems decided to release the source code for Solaris, which was really good I felt. But there were bits they had to withhold, as these were licensed from third parties. So OpenSolaris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSolaris was released, with some differences from the official Solaris. I still run OpenSoaris to this say as my main operating system - I'm typing on it now. drkirkby@hawk:~$ cat /etc/release OpenSolaris Development snv_134 X86 Copyright 2010 Sun Microsystems, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Use is subject to license terms. Assembled 01 March 2010 Unfortunately Sun was bought by Oracle, who made no more public releases. There are a number of forks of OpenSolaris in existence though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenIndiana It would not surprise me if Autodesk had similar problems, so could not realise the code under the GPL even if they wanted to - which I doubt they would anyway. There are a number of Eagle -> KiCad converters around Eagle to KiCad made easy | Hackaday https://github.com/lachlanA/eagle-to-kicad-libs but I get the feeling none are perfect. But I believe there will be a new impetus for that now. You only have to look on the KiCad forums, and see a number of recent posts (Jan or Fed 2017) about such converters. One was announced 21 days ago https://forum.kicad.info/t/eagle-to-kicad-library-converter/5206 Others https://forum.kicad.info/t/can-you-import-a-schematic-from-eaglecad/543 The second post down here is interesting https://forum.kicad.info/t/autodesk-kills-the-golden-eagle/4964 https://forum.kicad.info/t/error-with-converted-eagle-symbol-library/5305 Realistically, you are likely to find far more success moving to an open-source project now, than waiting around to see if Autodesk release the source for Eagle. It would be interesting to know whether KiCad or Eagle are getting the most man-hours spent on the development now. Clearly Autodesk are spending money on Eagle development, but CERN are on KiCad development. Maybe Eagle will improve faster than KiCad, or maybe it will be the other way - I have no idea. I can't imagine there are any KiCad users going to be switching to Eagle, whereas there are a number of Eagle users switching to KiCad, so my guess is that KiCad development will speed up, and Eagle development slow. But as I say, I don't know for sure. Dave 1 of 1 people found this helpful Actions

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macegr Feb 27, 2017 10:54 AM (in response to dukepro) 334. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Put the source code in escrow? This would all hinge upon taking Autodesk at their word; that they've put it in escrow, that they've put enough of it in escrow in order to compile a functional application, that the licensing of the material in escrow is permissive enough, etc. And the escrow service itself has to be reliable over many years. Other solutions don't depend on Autodesk's shaky record of keeping promises. Other solutions either have the code available up front or give you a license that will run eternally as long as you have a compatible operating system.

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dukepro Feb 27, 2017 2:43 PM (in response to macegr) 335. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 02/27/2017 11:54 AM, Garrett Mace wrote: Put the source code in escrow? This would all hinge upon taking Autodesk at their word; that they've put it in escrow, Well, sort of. I've done this in past lives back in the '80s. The escrow was held by an attorney. On each release, the attorney would receive the package from the author, and hire an independent expert to verify that the package could be built. It's really not that big of a deal to for someone to come in once or twice a year to do the verification. And the escrow service itself has to be reliable over many years. True. Other solutions don't depend on Autodesk's shaky record of keeping promises. From the responses so far, it doesn't look like having an escrow would bring "no-go" customers back. As for myself, I have two primary objections: The cost, and the requirement to be beholden to a) another company, and b) a server on the Internet. There are portions of my ECAD and MCAD work that need to be done on a computer that never connects to the Internet. This is also why I don't use Inventor. I believe that Eagle solutions for this are not forthcoming. And, no, an escrow of source code would not have satisfied my requirements. I'd like to hear back from Matt to see if Autodesk is in any way flexible. Best regards, - Chuck

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CadSoft Guest Feb 28, 2017 3:08 AM (in response to dukepro) 336. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 27.02.2017 21:42, Chuck Huber wrote: I'd like to hear back from Matt to see if Autodesk is in any way flexible. A company with 10000 employees and flexible... Yeah sure... But they may prove me wrong.... Markus

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CadSoft Guest Feb 28, 2017 3:08 AM (in response to dukepro) 337. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 27.02.2017 21:42, Chuck Huber wrote: I'd like to hear back from Matt to see if Autodesk is in any way flexible. A company with 10000 employees and flexible... Yeah sure... But they may prove me wrong.... Markus

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CadSoft Guest Mar 1, 2017 4:22 AM (in response to rachaelp) 338. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Am 22.02.2017 um 12:50 schrieb rachaelp: I'm sure Autodesk has plenty of servers spread around the world https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/01/aws_s3_outage/

:

Tuesday's Amazon Web Services mega-outage knocked offline not only websites big and small, by yanking away their backend storage, , Autodesk's cloud, But hey, it was only five hours. And maybe you couldn't use Eagle anyway then because you have a Razer mouse: https://www.reddit.com/r/razer/comments/5wpk3l/cant_connect_to_razer_synapse/ (Thanks to fefe! https://blog.fefe.de/?ts=a64851a1 ) Hans

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Joop14 Mar 1, 2017 8:27 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 339. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Future of Eagle... https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/bim-360-glue-forum/bim-360-is-currently-unavailable-please-try-again-later/td-p/6909972 Best Regards, Karel -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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CadSoft Guest Mar 1, 2017 4:08 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 340. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Just got a contact from Altium, starting with, "You are in a rush to modify your PCB. So, you start EAGLE and then this happens..." and then a picture of the "Oops, an error occurred" Autodesk dialog. Then, the interesting part, "Move to Altium Designer and we will give you back what you paid for your EAGLE license!" -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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macegr Mar 1, 2017 4:43 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 341. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

It's going to work, too. The only reason you don't often see competitors in the same business doing this sort of adversarial marketing: usually companies don't aim a crew-served .50 at their own feet and hold down the trigger.

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sauerwald Mar 1, 2017 4:54 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 342. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Altium is not a cure-all. I use both Eagle and Altium. When using Altium my employer has a license server where I have to grab a license to use the program. If I am away from an internet connection and don't have an active license, I am S.O.L, Sometimes I will be working with a schematic only license, and then need to use the layout tool - and that can also be a PITA. Altium is a fine environment, and does some things far better than Eagle. Eagle has it's advantages too, and there are times when it is the best tool for the job, but neither one ticks all the boxes. I do lament the change in licensing structure, and I hope that it will change. For the forseeable future, I'll continue working in Eagle (7.5) as well as Altium. Mark

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drkirkby Mar 1, 2017 5:01 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 343. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

CadSoft Guest wrote: Just got a contact from Altium, starting with, "You are in a rush to modify your PCB. So, you start EAGLE and then this happens..." and then a picture of the "Oops, an error occurred" Autodesk dialog. Then, the interesting part, "Move to Altium Designer and we will give you back what you paid for your EAGLE license!" -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets. Competition in a marketplace is usually a good thing, and it seems the Autodesk has created a bit more competition. I don't suppose Altium made a serious attempt to attract Eagle customers before, as they knew there was a significant price difference. But Autodesk have introduced a "feature" which Altrium see as something they can exploit. It is interesting to see the number of people joining the KiCad forum very recently. This post by hippo

Import project from Eagle Projects about converting Eagle files to KiCad was made by someone who joined only one day ago. Although it appears he is already running 8.0. https://forum.kicad.info/t/import-project-from-eagle/5517 I don't think that is a coincidence. Dave

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CadSoft Guest Mar 1, 2017 5:23 PM (in response to sauerwald) 344. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Mark Sauerwald wrote on Wed, 01 March 2017 15:54 Altium is a fine environment, and does some things far better than Eagle. Yes, there is a reason they use Altium at my day job and would never consider EAGLE. Quote: Eagle has it's advantages too, and there are times when it is the best tool for the job, but neither one ticks all the boxes. Agreed. I tried to do a tiny board in Altium Designer, and just kept thinking I was using a bazooka to hit a tsetse fly... Quote: I do lament the change in licensing structure, and I hope that it will change. I'm a skeptic; I too prefer the old license, but doubt it will change. In a bittersweet decision, our diy music devices group decided to remove all eagle files from their web sites. I'm now converting my designs to KiCad (and Circuit Studio)... -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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macegr Mar 1, 2017 5:58 PM (in response to sauerwald) 345. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

We're used to hardship. I don't think there's ever been a CAD package used by professionals made someone say "You know, this program is an absolute joy to use" (barring some heavy-duty sarcasm). These software packages are hard to use, and not necessarily by bad developer decisions, but due to the nature of the work that has to be done. It takes significant time to be functional in them, let alone start feeling like an expert. The program gets in the way of your work for a long time as you start to learn it. An earlier poster said they wouldn't use a cloud or internet-tethered program for serious work even if it was free...or even if the software company PAID them to use it. The reason for this is above. Our time is valuable, and it's a waste of precious weeks and months to learn how to use a program that could be taken away at any moment. It would be like designing a new product that depended on a part that was already in last-time-buy status. You just made sure that at some point in the near future you're going to have to redesign that product. A cloud-based or internet-tethered CAD package takes away the chance you'll have to spend months becoming skilled in a different CAD package someday, and turns it into a certainty.

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CadSoft Guest Mar 2, 2017 2:33 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 346. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Yep, so true. And freezing for 5 hours because the nest thermostat also didn't control the heater anymore.... Interesting times nowadays... Markus

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CadSoft Guest Mar 2, 2017 5:13 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 347. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Markus Rudolf wrote on Thu, 02 March 2017 01:33 Yep, so true. And freezing for 5 hours because the nest thermostat also didn't control the heater anymore.... Interesting times nowadays... I'm starting to wonder if I'm part Luddite. I have a swamp cooler on my house, I drive a 1988 Toyota 4x4 with a manual transmission, and I've taken my best photographs with a completely manual Nikkormat. On the other hand, I'm having solar panels installed, I've got a Raspberry Pi controlling the watering system and I love my Lumia 550XL... LOL! -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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rbtx99 Mar 4, 2017 8:38 PM (in response to Joop14) 348. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Probably the outage was related to this... Amazon typo knocked websites offline - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-39151932

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CadSoft Guest Mar 5, 2017 8:03 AM (in response to rbtx99) 349. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Amazon typo knocked websites offline - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-39151932 url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Ftechnology-39151932)

(https://www.element14.com/community/external-link.jspa?



Of course with THEM this is never going to happen.... Also EAGLE never is going to be subscription... Markus

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Ed Robledo Mar 7, 2017 11:23 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 350. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Hi, Just as reminder, EAGLE can work offline for up to 14 days. Ed

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macegr Mar 7, 2017 11:31 AM (in response to Ed Robledo) 351. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Mine will work offline until the day there are no more computers that are able to run or virtualize the last compatible Mac, Windows, or Linux operating system. For all of our sakes I hope that is more than 14 days in the future, but with asteroids you never know.

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CadSoft Guest Mar 7, 2017 11:53 AM (in response to Ed Robledo) 352. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 07.03.2017 18:23, Ed Robledo wrote: Hi, Just as reminder, EAGLE can work offline for up to 14 days. Ed As a reminder, according to murphy's law the 14 day period is over exactly in the moment the license server is down. Markus

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Joop14 Mar 7, 2017 12:28 PM (in response to Ed Robledo) 353. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Ed Robledo wrote on Tue, 07 March 2017 18:23 Hi, Just as reminder, EAGLE can work offline for up to 14 days. Ed Just as reminder, EAGLE will work till autodesk decides to pull the plug. Karel -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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rbtx99 Mar 7, 2017 12:40 PM (in response to Ed Robledo) 354. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Ed Robledo wrote: Hi, Just as reminder, EAGLE can work offline for up to 14 days. Ed Just as reminder, we were told it would be perpetual license... and those 14 days can easily become 'connect every time' when Autodesk decides.

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burner Mar 8, 2017 2:46 AM (in response to rbtx99) 355. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

And they just did it. If you have student licence and Eagle 8.0.3 It wants internet connection each time when you start Eagle control panel. So example when you go to airplane or to bus what goes trough area where is no mobile connection, remember launch it first. When you are on air it is too late. I feel that is time to start study kicad. 1 of 1 people found this helpful Actions

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rachaelp Mar 8, 2017 8:37 AM (in response to burner) 356. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Burner . wrote: And they just did it. If you have student licence and Eagle 8.0.3 It wants internet connection each time when you start Eagle control panel. So example when you go to airplane or to bus what goes trough area where is no mobile connection, remember launch it first. When you are on air it is too late. I feel that is time to start study kicad. Really? If this is indeed true it would be disappointing but I think likely just a mistake to be corrected. I can't even see v8.0.3 available anywhere so maybe if they did release it they realised and pulled it already?

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technolomaniac Mar 8, 2017 10:05 PM (in response to burner) 357. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

This is false and I'm not sure where youre getting this information. Have you tested this or you're just making assumptions? FWIW, it rolls over to freeware when you are outside of the 14-day window but the token persists for educational version when you are offline. If you log in on an airplane, the token you have would continue to work. In fact, the educational version is a premium license (which is never was in the past...that cost $$$ in the past). The software *should* never stop working by virtue of going offline. 2 of 4 people found this helpful Actions

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Joop14 Mar 8, 2017 10:53 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 358. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Matt Berggren wrote on Wed, 08 March 2017 17:28 *This is false and I'm not sure where youre getting this information. Have you tested this or you're just making assumptions? Is this your first post on the forum? If so, perhaps you can test things before making unsubstantiated claims on the forums so we dont have misdirection here. Thanks! * Hi Matt, if I remember well, you are the person who said that Eagle shouldn't go subscription. Were you just making an unsubstantiated claim? This is false -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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CadSoft Guest Mar 8, 2017 11:43 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 359. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Matt Berggren wrote on Wed, 08 March 2017 09:28 *This is false and I'm not sure where youre getting this information. So Matt, why do you go away for a while, then swoop in to make statements like this, then disappear again? (Your last post here is from February 24.) You still haven't answered my questions about who runs these servers, and as far as I know, you still haven't given James a direct answer to his last message. You seem to be quite selective in what you respond to. I'm starting to wonder if you're a douche in real life, since from my perspective, you're sure coming across as one here... -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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burner Mar 8, 2017 4:55 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 360. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I tested it. Several times, I also try install it again, I try open it different ways and all times same result. Without connection it asks to connect network first and press retry. Anyway that retry button does not work. When I am on internet there is no problem at all. I can just open it and it works. BUT if I close Control Panel and try open it without network it is each time same thing. Because looks that you have some kind trust issues with first posters I also attach screen capture. And BTW I find that forum because I try find solution to that problem. So Matt I totally understand that you want to be first, but it does not make you a president even you claim that it is false news.

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CadSoft Guest Mar 8, 2017 5:28 PM (in response to burner) 361. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 3/8/2017 5:55 PM, Burner . wrote: I tested it. Several times, I also try install it again, I try open it different ways and all times same result. Without connection it asks to connect network first and press retry. Anyway that retry button does not work. When I am on internet there is no problem at all. I can just open it and it works. BUT if I close Control Panel and try open it without network it is each time same thing. Because looks that you have some kind trust issues with first posters I also attach screen capture. And BTW I find that forum because I try find solution to that problem. So Matt I totally understand that you want to be first, but it does not make you a president even you claim that it is false news. -To view any images and attachments in this post, visit: https://www.element14.com/community/message/217916 Hi Burner, What operating system are you working with? Are you on Linux? On Linux, EAGLE currently has difficulty with Mac addresses when you are not connected through an Ethernet cable. This is a known issue and we are looking onto it. If you are not on linux, please e-mail me directly [email protected] and we'll look into it some more. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia -We have a new forum here

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technolomaniac Mar 8, 2017 9:32 PM (in response to Joop14) 362. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

This isnt correct. I stated we hadn't planned to do this and it wasn't a priority at the time however we may do it in the future. Paraphrasing I believe I'd said "we weren't planning this however could I say we never would? No. But it wasn't a priority." So you're omitting an important piece of the overall story. We made the call to do this with version 8. So I'd appreciate if it was characterized as though Id been dishonest. Thanks!

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technolomaniac Mar 8, 2017 9:45 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 363. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I'd corrected an innacuracy and I'll thank you for not trolling another user (myself included) and reducing this to a name calling exercise. If you want to know more about me and what I get up to, checkout my hackaday profile (Hackaday.com/matt). When it's not building OSHW stuff or dropping in here when I can, I'm working on EAGLE...if indeed your curious what Im up to.

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technolomaniac Mar 8, 2017 10:02 PM (in response to burner) 364. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

You have to connect to the network the first time. Once you do this, the SW will run in freeware mode even if the license 'lapses'. The student version also requires that you login at least one time. If you just want to install the freeware, you still need an account and you need to login at least one time. If you change mac address, this may also require you to log in. If you want to contact support, they'll help you get this sorted. If it is not working at all, then you likely have a proxy issue or you are switching mac addresses, etc. but this shouldn't occur after the first time you login. This hasn't been reported with people that have logged in already so it's something for us to look into. This would be something for support to figure out and if we need to fix something, we will do our best to get it into the next build. Cheers, mb

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technolomaniac Mar 8, 2017 10:03 PM (in response to burner) 365. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

BTW, if you close that window, what happens? Does eagle run at all?

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macegr Mar 8, 2017 10:03 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 366. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Your defense after the revealing of the subscription model was that all of Autodesk's software was actively moving to subscription, and it was the wave of the future since everyone was doing it. But those reasons were true at the time you said you weren't planning on a subscription model. So we incorrectly thought that Eagle was being treated differently than the rest of Autodesk's products. Based on the timeline, the idea of moving to subscription had to be actively discussed around then...otherwise how would you have had the time to integrate the code for the new licensing, create all the new websites and documentation, integrate the new SKU into Autodesk's accounting system, and test everything? Plus make a couple of small changes to the schematic and PCB layout behavior? Now, if the move to subscription was being discussed without your involvement, we could understand your statement reassuring us that subscription was not on the road map. But if that's true, it must have sucked to have that decision handed to you without your input or even asking current customers about the possibility. I will give you credit, ever since that statement about subscription not being planned (but maybe someday), you simply just didn't answer direct questions about whether subscription was being planned. So it's not like you lied at all, you just made a reassuring statement with a loophole you could use, and then hid what you were actually doing. That's way better than being lied to as other claim above, but strangely it feels much the same.

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technolomaniac Mar 8, 2017 10:26 PM (in response to macegr) 367. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Thanks Garrett. I can appreciate what everyone's feeling and I can only add that it wasn't anything as sinister as "we had a master plan" or that we hoped to use misdirection to mislead you or anyone else. We just hadn't thought much about it at the time when we first closed on the acquisition and now that we're firing on all cylinders in development, we made the move. We timed this with version 8 because that's when we started getting up to speed on the code base an the CI/CD model was in our sights. Now that it's happened, it isn't a direction we're going to change, however it's coming with a massive uptick in investment in development that will yield some pretty amazing new technology. This hopefully doesn't get lost in the weeds. Continuous deployment is a commitment we have to make with all Autodesk tools when we move to subscription and this is happening. That release cycle is gaining speed very fast. (I wasn't kidding about investment in routing, in ECADMCAD or library improvements, etc.) We'll continue to invest in this (big $$) and as people follow EAGLE development, it's incumbent on us to bring the "wishlist" to life. We're not in this for the short-game. This is a long term investment in the future of electronic product development. Best regards. Matt

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macegr Mar 8, 2017 10:43 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 368. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I understand, I really do. I recognize that you're dedicated to making this a good product. However, it's just not for me and many of the past customers of Eagle, or for EE professionals. It's for someone else that Autodesk believes is a larger, more lucrative market. And honestly, the only reason we're in here and upset is because we cared. But I don't know what the point is anymore. If you waved a magic wand and a permanent license was available, and if the free version worked as a viewer with zero internet requirement to install, would I re-invest? The punchbowl has already been turded. We're all looking at it just floating there. And you're saying that the next party over also has a turd in the punchbowl but that's not important, you're going to the store right now to get top-shelf vodka and fruit juice, you're going to pour it all over the top of the turd and the punch will be only the fruitiest, most alcoholic bowl of punch we've ever seen. Seriously great punch. But if I get what I want, and you fish out the turd, am I going line up for a drink? No. Damage is already done. Trust is gone. It's been a great run, Eagle. I'll use my old copy until it doesn't work, or until I learn enough about other tools to like them more.

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burner Mar 8, 2017 11:38 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 369. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Windows 10 64 bit. At earlier post I claim that I use 8.0.3 it is typo. It is 8.0.2

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burner Mar 8, 2017 11:50 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 370. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Nope, It just get closed. Also if I connect to net when that window is already open and press that refresh button nothing happens. Only way to get that running is that computer needs to be connected to internet when I launch software. If I connect it when that windows is already open I need close and reopen eagle to get it work. I can close & open files via eagle control panel. Anyway if I example open file via explorer and it will start new instance of control panel it will not open if computer is not at net.

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CadSoft Guest Mar 9, 2017 2:13 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 371. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 09/03/17 03:45, Matt Berggren wrote: I'd corrected an innacuracy No, you hadn't. Sorry, Matt, I can understand that you feel frustrated by the number of people who took your poorly worded statement many months ago at face value and now hate you with a vengeance, but your tone on here has been consistently rude and argumentative. In this case, you ACCUSED HIM OF LYING. That is NOT the same as correcting and inaccuracy. You need to sound less like a troll yourself before accusing anyone else of trolling. Now I shall once more remove myself from this pointless argument.

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CadSoft Guest Mar 9, 2017 7:13 AM (in response to burner) 372. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 03/09/2017 12:50 AM, Burner . wrote: Nope, It just get closed. Also if I connect to net when that window is already open and press that refresh button nothing happens. Only way to get that running is that computer needs to be connected to internet when I launch software. If I connect it when that windows is already open I need close and reopen eagle to get it work. I can close & open files via eagle control panel. Anyway if I example open file via explorer and it will start new instance of control panel it will not open if computer is not at net. -To view any images and attachments in this post, visit: https://www.element14.com/community/message/217922 If you don't have a network connection you don't have a mac address. It also changes from eithernet connection vs wifi. Paul

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geralds Mar 9, 2017 7:43 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 373. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

CadSoft Guest wrote: Re: Eagle v8 licensing... If you don't have a network connection you don't have a mac address. It also changes from eithernet connection vs wifi. Paul Hi Paul, ähm ??? what does mac with Ethernet?? - they are two pair of shoes. The MAC-address is "fix"(of course changeable register entry) in the hardware, Ethernet is a protocol. If you have no connection firstly you have no protocol or no cable connection, and then can happen also missing a MAC. But the MAC is coming with the manufactured hardware. -> If you say "if you don't have Ethernet, you have no MAC" - then i suggest that there was a hack attack. Gerald ---

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burner Mar 9, 2017 7:50 AM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 374. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

If you don't have a network connection you don't have a mac address. It also changes from eithernet connection vs wifi. Paul That can explain it. Anyway I see that more like bug than feature then. Modern Windows 10 machines jump interfaces up and down quite lot depending do you have cable, wifi or vpn connected. If that software licence system use only active interface mac or prefer it it is not good software design. Yes it can be feature but so brain dead one that in perspective of users it is just badly broken software. Good licencing modules are base of software vendor business. Bad ones are just way to get rid of customers and destroy business. I know that cad soft had have poor ones (flexlm) at their softwares what are at monopoly position in business. Anyway in PCB cad market they are not at monopoly position so enforcing customers to poor technology can lead just mass escape of customers.

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CadSoft Guest Mar 9, 2017 8:18 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 375. Re: Eagle v8 licensing.. .

Matt Berggren wrote on Wed, 08 March 2017 20:45 I'd corrected an innacuracy and I'll thank you for not trolling another user (myself included) and reducing this to a name calling exercise. So, the point remains. Why will you not answer my and/or some other people's questions? As I said, you seem to be very selective about what you respond to, and you are reinforcing it with this very message. BTW, you brought the subject up, I asked you to cite your sources, you've ignored me, I called you out. That is not trolling. Quote: If you want to know more about me and what I get up to, checkout my hackaday profile (Hackaday.com/matt). When it's not building OSHW stuff or dropping in here when I can, I'm working on EAGLE...if indeed your curious what Im up to. I don't care about what you "get up to" other than how it affects EAGLE. You could be some global humanitarian and it still wouldn't change the perception of how you interact with us here. Now I have to admit "dropping in here when can" makes you seem more like a seagull than a douche. You lectured me about this community in a past message, but I really believe it's you who is not a part of the community. You can "correct an inaccuracy" of my perception by answering my questions directly... -EAGLE support forums at http://www.eaglecentral.ca :: Where the EAGLE community meets.

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geralds Mar 9, 2017 8:28 AM (in response to burner) 376. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

YES - That's the point! also what i meant above. The point of the disaster is that they not listening the costumers. And if so, they misinterpret the customers "the customers are so aggressive to me..."... No we are not aggressive we are a little bit annoyed about the strong method from Autodesk. "pay first today and then after one year you can get what you paid for..!" -> A bag with fleas inside. Gerald ---

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dukepro Mar 9, 2017 9:08 AM (in response to burner) 377. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 03/09/2017 08:50 AM, Burner . wrote: If you don't have a network connection you don't have a mac address. It also changes from eithernet connection vs wifi. Paul

That can explain it. Anyway I see that more like bug than feature then. Modern Windows 10 machines jump interfaces up and down quite lot depending do you have cable, wifi or vpn connected. I'm missing something... Why would Windows 10 change the MAC address? Oh... wait, I see. Sometimes you're connected to the Internet via a cable (one interface), sometimes through WiFi (another interface), or vpn (yet another interface). Depending on what you're using at the time, the MAC address for the /active/ connection may be different than what it was for a /previous/ connection. As for windows jumping interfaces up and down quite a lot, then perhaps you've chosen the wrong operating system, and not necessarily the wrong ECAD package. Something to consider, anyway. If that software licence system use only active interface mac or prefer it it is not good software design. Yes it can be feature but so brain dead one that in perspective of users it is just badly broken software. Something that doesn't change on-the-fly is the disk ID on which the software is installed, or the inode number. Granted, this does change with a disk swap, or restore from backups, so a revalidating of the license would be required in those instances. Anyway in PCB cad market they are not at monopoly position so enforcing customers to poor technology can lead just mass escape of customers. Well, the loss of customers was predicable. I'm sure they had similar loss when they moved other products to subscription only. I'm also sure Autodesk considered the fiasco encountered when Cadsoft moved to flexlm with v7.0 and considered receiving a similar retort when they decided to acquire Cadsoft. Personally, I believe Autodesk assumed that they would move to a subscription model well before the acquisition - that's their business model. They'd been through the perpetual to subscription transition for most of their other products and assumed that the same would occur with Eagle. Their past experiences with this turned out well for their revenue stream (which means that it did NOT lower the cost to customers), and the experience will turn out well for them with Cadsoft. The two primary problems I have with subscriptions are: My intellectual property is essentially being held hostage. It requires that I have an active paid subscription to maintain designs, and I have to have a connection to the Internet in order for the software to validate the license. This precludes use of Eagle in any environment that does not have a connection to the Internet. Those willing to accept a subscription model will see a rapid delivery of bug fixes and new features, since additional development resources can be dedicated to this effort. I would assume that Matt is pretty much heading this up. What developer wouldn't be happy with more funds available for development? This can purchase higher quality software engineers, more floor space, not to mention the long wish list being tackled head-on and the integration with the existing MCAD products offered by Autodesk. The downside to a subscription model has been well voiced in this forum. I can see where this is good, very good for Eagle. It's really too bad that I won't be able to share the results of their efforts. Matt, I sincerely hope you enjoy the adventure ahead. Best regards, - Chuck

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burner Mar 9, 2017 2:22 PM (in response to dukepro) 378. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I'm missing something... Why would Windows 10 change the MAC address? Oh... wait, I see. Sometimes you're connected to the Internet via a cable (one interface), sometimes through WiFi (another interface), or vpn (yet another interface). Depending on what you're using at the time, the MAC address for the /active/ connection may be different than what it was for a /previous/ connection. As for windows jumping interfaces up and down quite a lot, then perhaps you've chosen the wrong operating system, and not necessarily the wrong ECAD package. Something to consider, anyway. I think these days it is quite basic thing that some days you use your computer at wired connection and some times you have only wifi. Some times you do not have neither. Anyway if licence manager take identification from active NIC MAC it means that this whole 14 day heard beat thing is useless. Because when you drop your wifi to offline it is not active card any more and it will disable licence. Do they really thing that users will carry dummy wifi AP without uplink with them for workaround =)

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dukepro Mar 10, 2017 8:43 AM (in response to burner) 379. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 03/09/2017 03:22 PM, Burner . wrote: I'm missing something... Why would Windows 10 change the MAC address? Oh... wait, I see. Sometimes you're connected to the Internet via a cable (one interface), sometimes through WiFi (another interface), or vpn (yet another interface). Depending on what you're using at the time, the MAC address for the /active/ connection may be different than what it was for a /previous/ connection. As for windows jumping interfaces up and down quite a lot, then perhaps you've chosen the wrong operating system, and not necessarily the wrong ECAD package. Something to consider, anyway.

I think these days it is quite basic thing that some days you use your computer at wired connection and some times you have only wifi. Some times you do not have neither. Anyway if licence manager take identification from active NIC MAC it means that this whole 14 day heard beat thing is useless. Because when you drop your wifi to offline it is not active card any more and it will disable licence. Do they really thing that users will carry dummy wifi AP without uplink with them for workaround =) Activity as you describe is very true. As soon as someone goes from hardline to WiFi, they could be toast. Perhaps this would be a good one to hand off to support? What do you say, Jorge? Are you able to verify this? I can't complain too much since I don't have a dog in this race for other reasons. Best regards, - Chuck

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dukepro Mar 10, 2017 8:43 AM (in response to burner) 380. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 03/09/2017 03:22 PM, Burner . wrote: I'm missing something... Why would Windows 10 change the MAC address? Oh... wait, I see. Sometimes you're connected to the Internet via a cable (one interface), sometimes through WiFi (another interface), or vpn (yet another interface). Depending on what you're using at the time, the MAC address for the /active/ connection may be different than what it was for a /previous/ connection. As for windows jumping interfaces up and down quite a lot, then perhaps you've chosen the wrong operating system, and not necessarily the wrong ECAD package. Something to consider, anyway.

I think these days it is quite basic thing that some days you use your computer at wired connection and some times you have only wifi. Some times you do not have neither. Anyway if licence manager take identification from active NIC MAC it means that this whole 14 day heard beat thing is useless. Because when you drop your wifi to offline it is not active card any more and it will disable licence. Do they really thing that users will carry dummy wifi AP without uplink with them for workaround =) Activity as you describe is very true. As soon as someone goes from hardline to WiFi, they could be toast. Perhaps this would be a good one to hand off to support? What do you say, Jorge? Are you able to verify this? I can't complain too much since I don't have a dog in this race for other reasons. Best regards, - Chuck

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CadSoft Guest Mar 10, 2017 11:23 AM (in response to dukepro) 381. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Activity as you describe is very true. As soon as someone goes from hardline to WiFi, they could be toast. Perhaps this would be a good one to hand off to support? What do you say, Jorge? Are you able to verify this? I can't complain too much since I don't have a dog in this race for other reasons. Best regards, - Chuck Hey Chuck, To be perfectly honest, I wish you did have a dog in this race. I've always appreciated your participation on the forums and your insights, but anyway that's a different matter. This situation has been observed under linux and it is something that is being looked into actively. Haven't heard of it on Windows I'll go ahead and update the report we have on this issue. Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia -We have a new forum here

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macegr Mar 10, 2017 1:10 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 382. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

If I have to pay a certain amount every month to keep it alive, don't know if it'll be around 5-10-15 years in the future (but certainly not forever), have to accept its somewhat awkward and silly nature, and have to clean up after its accidents occasionally, I'll just go get a real dog.

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andycrofts Mar 16, 2017 3:17 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 383. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Horses for courses, I guess.... I used eagle free to design and test the prototype, then buy the low-cost commercial version to produce the production version. I could have shrunk the board a lot by going 4-layer, but it didn't warrant the jump in price. Now, if I understand correctly, I'll just need a 1-month subscription to convert the board to 4-layer, at 15 bucks! I could easily do it in a month... Has eagle shot themselves in the foot?

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sanddancer Mar 17, 2017 2:44 AM (in response to technolomaniac) 384. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I'm disabled, but occasionally can get some extra pocket money by selling a board. So, to keep to the license agreement, I purchased a $70 license that allows me to use it for commercial purposes. That $70 is a fixed cost, I can budget it, I can work around it, if I needed, I could hold off on an upgrade for a few months until I could afford it. The new license at $100/year, however, is not worth it. Period. The new features don't justify the significant increase in price, and the month-by-month price starts getting significantly more expensive after month 5. Lowering standard to $5/month, I'd consider it, but at $15/month, no way.

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Ed Robledo Mar 20, 2017 11:09 AM (in response to andycrofts) 385. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Andy Crofts wrote: Horses for courses, I guess.... I used eagle free to design and test the prototype, then buy the low-cost commercial version to produce the production version. I could have shrunk the board a lot by going 4-layer, but it didn't warrant the jump in price. Now, if I understand correctly, I'll just need a 1-month subscription to convert the board to 4-layer, at 15 bucks! I could easily do it in a month... Has eagle shot themselves in the foot? Hi Andy, No, this is the idea, give better option to the user. Instead of having to make a upfront a large investment, you now have a commercial grade use of a program for the time you need it. The program will continue to work for you as a viewer and to export the necessary production files. This is the whole idea behind the new license model. Best Regards, Ed Robledo Support Specialist Autodesk, Inc.

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rbtx99 Mar 20, 2017 6:21 PM (in response to Ed Robledo) 386. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Ed Robledo wrote: Hi Andy, No, this is the idea, give better option to the user. Instead of having to make a upfront a large investment, you now have a commercial grade use of a program for the time you need it. The program will continue to work for you as a viewer and to export the necessary production files. This is the whole idea behind the new license model. Best Regards, Ed Robledo Support Specialist Autodesk, Inc. No, the idea of the subscription is to get more revenue for Autodesk. If your concern was about what the customers want then you would offer the perpetual license that everyone is asking for. You could offer it in parallel with the subscription but you are not interested in doing so.

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sanddancer Mar 21, 2017 3:00 AM (in response to Ed Robledo) 387. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Still more expensive than the old $70 commercial license after just five months. Still more expensive after a year for the maker license. This is pretty significant for a number of people, and Autodesk's attitude to the criticism is why I'm going to keep using my old version of eagle until I make the jump to KiCad. The value proposition is just not there, and Autodesk's hard press for this sales model is real off-putting.

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CadSoft Guest Mar 21, 2017 3:10 PM (in response to Ed Robledo) 388. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Am 20.03.2017 um 17:09 schrieb Ed Robledo: The program will continue to work for you as a viewer and to export the necessary production files. This is the whole idea behind the new license model. Exactly. The whole idea is that we end up with nothing but a viewer, after throwing away whatever amount of money. Do you really expect us loving it?

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CadSoft Guest Mar 21, 2017 3:10 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 389. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 21.03.2017 09:57, René König wrote: Am 20.03.2017 um 17:09 schrieb Ed Robledo:

The program will continue to work for you as a viewer and to export the necessary production files. This is the whole idea behind the new license model.

Exactly. The whole idea is that we end up with nothing but a viewer, after throwing away whatever amount of money. Do you really expect us loving it? I think Autocad got it now. Only they will know if their new business model works with Eagle, and if they are able to earn money on it. If not, I am sure we will hear the signs in a year or two. Personally I agree that the value proposition is not there, and will take a while before it gets there. I have made my own list of features I would like Eagle to be able to see in a future version, and when I look at it from above, those new features will become very expensive. Maybe they could have offered a signigicant premium to existing 7.7 users to catch us. A 50% discount for a year is not attractive enough to sign up to a payment plan with an unknown future.

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COMPACT Mar 21, 2017 4:22 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 390. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

I just wish that EAGLE had a cheap licence for a maximum limit of 6" x 11" for two sided PCBs such as vintage S-100 boards. The low density of old SSI (Small Scale Integration) ICs doesn't allow these designs on very small boards.

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Ed Robledo Mar 21, 2017 4:30 PM (in response to COMPACT) 391. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

COMPACT wrote: I just wish that EAGLE had a cheap licence for a maximum limit of 6" x 11" for two sided PCBs such as vintage S-100 boards. The low density of old SSI (Small Scale Integration) ICs doesn't allow these designs on very small boards. Maybe a few months of the EAGLE Premium version is all you need to get this project done. Ed Robledo Global Support Specialist Autodesk, Inc.

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rbtx99 Mar 21, 2017 4:49 PM (in response to Ed Robledo) 392. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Ed Robledo wrote: Maybe a few months of the EAGLE Premium version is all you need to get this project done.

That reply shows how disconnected Autodesk is with how engineers work. Just today I opened an EAGLE board I designed last September to modify a component value. With your licensing model I need a month subscription just to update such minor things. It may be a resistor value, or it may be one track that we moved to another MCU pin, or moving a screw hole which I did on the same board in December. If I don't update the board immediately then the information get scattered around and can be lost/missed. Really, EVERYTHING about the subscription license is detrimental to my work and workflow.

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COMPACT Mar 21, 2017 4:45 PM (in response to rbtx99) 393. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Likewise for me and a lot of other parties. Also the machine being used is deliberately isolated and not network connected.

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CadSoft Guest Mar 21, 2017 5:42 PM (in response to rbtx99) 394. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

rbtx99 schrieb: Ed Robledo wrote: Maybe a few months of the EAGLE Premium version is all you need to get this project done.

That reply shows how disconnected Autodesk is with how engineers work. Full acknowledge to this statement from me! Andreas

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COMPACT Mar 21, 2017 8:10 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 395. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Not to worry, it's back to the Drawing board for me.

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andycrofts Apr 8, 2017 12:16 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 396. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

OK, don't like subscription model, but I can certainly live with it IF: I found a lovely chip from TI. 3-channel high-side voltage/current measuring thingy with I2C interface. INA3221. Perfect for (e.g.) solar panel/MPPT design. BUT, it's only surface mount. Take me about an hour to put it onto a breadboard PCB, so "Arduino-compatible". I'll give the design away under the GPL , but there are folks out there who can't do their own PCB. It'd be double-sided. Does this new subscription model mean I can make a free prototype, test, then if it's OK, take a months €15 subscription to satisfy the legal bit, make a thousand PCB's (from Seeedstudio, for example that month), sell them and let my subscription lapse? Seems cheap to me! Or am I missing something?

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macegr Apr 8, 2017 1:03 PM (in response to andycrofts) 397. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

The pricing is not the issue (though it's more expensive for someone who makes a PCB every month). The part you're missing is that some of us prefer not to have our tools stop working on the day Autodesk decides Eagle isn't worth it anymore.

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KE5FX Apr 9, 2017 10:07 PM (in response to andycrofts) 398. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 4/8/2017 10:03 AM, Andy Crofts wrote: OK, don't like subscription model, but I can certainly live with it IF: I found a lovely chip from TI. 3-channel high-side voltage/current measuring thingy with I2C interface. Perfect for (e.g.) solar panel/MPPT design. BUT, it's only surface mount. Take me about an hour to put it onto a breadboard PCB, so "Arduino-compatible". I'll give the design away under the GPL , but there are folks out there who can't do their own PCB. It'd be double-sided. Does this new subscription model mean I can make a free prototype, test, then if it's OK, take a months €15 subscription to satisfy the legal bit, make a thousand PCB's (from Seeedstudio, for example that month), sell them and let my subscription lapse? Seems cheap to me! Or am I missing something? Maybe, maybe not. Come back and try to access your design in a few years, and see how lucky you are. -- john

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KE5FX Apr 9, 2017 10:07 PM (in response to andycrofts) 399. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 4/8/2017 10:03 AM, Andy Crofts wrote: OK, don't like subscription model, but I can certainly live with it IF: I found a lovely chip from TI. 3-channel high-side voltage/current measuring thingy with I2C interface. Perfect for (e.g.) solar panel/MPPT design. BUT, it's only surface mount. Take me about an hour to put it onto a breadboard PCB, so "Arduino-compatible". I'll give the design away under the GPL , but there are folks out there who can't do their own PCB. It'd be double-sided. Does this new subscription model mean I can make a free prototype, test, then if it's OK, take a months €15 subscription to satisfy the legal bit, make a thousand PCB's (from Seeedstudio, for example that month), sell them and let my subscription lapse? Seems cheap to me! Or am I missing something? Maybe, maybe not. Come back and try to access your design in a few years, and see how lucky you are. -- john

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geralds Apr 10, 2017 6:30 AM (in response to andycrofts) 400. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Are you sure, that you are sure? OK, don't like subscription model, but I can certainly live with it IF: Then press ENTER! After expiring the license period Eagle falls down to the toy mode. -> free mode. Gerald ---

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Ed Robledo Apr 10, 2017 4:21 PM (in response to andycrofts) 401. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Andy Crofts wrote: OK, don't like subscription model, but I can certainly live with it IF: I found a lovely chip from TI. 3-channel high-side voltage/current measuring thingy with I2C interface. INA3221. Perfect for (e.g.) solar panel/MPPT design. BUT, it's only surface mount. Take me about an hour to put it onto a breadboard PCB, so "Arduino-compatible". I'll give the design away under the GPL , but there are folks out there who can't do their own PCB. It'd be double-sided. Does this new subscription model mean I can make a free prototype, test, then if it's OK, take a months €15 subscription to satisfy the legal bit, make a thousand PCB's (from Seeedstudio, for example that month), sell them and let my subscription lapse? Seems cheap to me! Or am I missing something? Hi Andy, According to the scenario you are describing, this is fine, a one month subscription will be fine. Best Regards, Ed Autodesk Support Specialist [email protected]

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rbtx99 Apr 14, 2017 6:49 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 402. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Tempting $995 for new license. $495 for EAGLE users. Switch from Eagle PCB http://www.altium.com/eagle-switch/circuitstudio/ Altium CircuitStudio v1.4 Release

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COMPACT Apr 16, 2017 1:27 AM (in response to rbtx99) 403. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Why not give PCBWEB a go? It's not very fast but it's a freebee and comes with unwanted bugs and all. With the proper configuration you can go from Schematic Capture to Gerber Files in a jiffy. If e14 had their parts database attached it'd be even better! The schematic and PCB results look really neat. http://www.montman.info/alpha-plus-schematics.html

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rbtx99 May 1, 2017 6:04 PM (in response to rbtx99) 404. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

As a follow up to my previous post, I have now been trialing Altium CircuitStudio for the last two weeks. There is a learning curve for sure and it drove me mad for the first 1-2 hours but overall the luring curve is not as steep as I thought it would be. I am also impressed with the flexibility and speed in performing some tasks compared to EAGLE. So today decided to buy it using the half price offer for EAGLE users before it is no longer available. The Farnell website shows On Backorder but I purchased it anyway and the license was delivered via email soon after. https://uk.farnell.com/altium/11-100-15-1-p-e/software-pcb-design-professional/dp/2726528? CMP=i-bf9f-00001000 For small company owners like me, and for those concerned about offline activation like me, here is some info: 1) CircuitStudio normally installs via an online tool. However you can ask the Element 14 staff to for an offline installer. I have received the offline installer and I can confirm it works without internet connection. You can find info about it here in the chat at the bottom of the page: Altium CircuitStudio FAQs 2) The first time you must active your license whist having internet connection. This downloads the license to your computer. Then you can export it as a standalone file and use it on a computer without Internet connection. 3) The license allows for installation on a second computer (at home). Very handy for those of us with small business that have to bring work home sometimes.

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eliminster Jul 25, 2017 7:34 PM (in response to rbtx99) 405. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Just happened to me too.

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CadSoft Guest Oct 24, 2017 5:33 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 406. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 1/19/2017 10:09 AM, Tilmann Reh wrote: Rachael schrieb:

It's definitely possible, but whether they will entertain having two separate licensing systems within the software is another thing entirely. It might lead to unforeseen issues.

Not supporting that might also lead to issues - foreseen, however: many people won't subscribe and move on to other software. It doesn't make any sense to try to force users into a subscription model if they don't want that. In fact, I would rather switch to a completely different CAD than "upgrade" to a subscription license. It's all that easy: if there are no permanent offline licenses any more, many will leave - or simply continue to use their existing licenses. It's up to Autodesk to judge if that counts for them (and/or if eventually new customers who subscribe are able to compensate for that). Tilmann Hello Tilmann, I hope you're doing well. I need you to please send me an e-mail to [email protected] at your earliest convenience. There's an important matter I need to discuss with you. Please let me know if there's anything else I can do for you. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia -We have a new forum here

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CadSoft Guest Oct 24, 2017 5:33 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 407. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 1/21/2017 3:01 AM, Joern Paschedag wrote: Joern Paschedag Hello Joern, I hope you're doing well. When you have a moment please send me an e-mail to [email protected]. There something important I need to discuss with you. Thanks in advanced. Best Regards, Jorge Garcia -We have a new forum here

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tempelman Oct 19, 2017 8:07 PM (in response to technolomaniac) 408. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

Just in case Matt or anyone in else Autodesk reading this. We are a small engineering firm, 20 employees. We bought AutoCAD 2015 just before the subscription model came in. We're using AutoCAD as long as I can remember (>30 years). We also bought Eagle 5.11 standard and later 7.6 standard when it was still CadSoft. Simply love these packages. How I was upset when I heard Autodesk took them over. Autodesk had already given us so much abuse why we didn't want to get AutoCAD subscription and so on and so forth; whining like little children insisting to sell their 'support'. Told them repeatedly that we BUY what we use, whether it is a car, a washing machine, a computer or a piece of software. And all the good reasons for this approach have been extensively addressed in this forum. Typical American approach to lease everything and maximize company profit and then be sooo surprised when it all suddenly collapses in your face; where did we see that before... Autodesk. The customer is always right. Even if the customer is wrong, he is still right. Got it? In our case: we are growing our business fast. Instead of buying another AutoCAD (which we normally would have done), we are now using other packages. And will keep using those, because they are fine and come with no hassle. And as for Eagle, we'll keep using 7.6. Or buy something else. And yes, we are saying good-bye to some other software firms as well for the same reasons, and find there is a world of good alternatives making you wonder why we got with them in the first place. bye bye Autodesk. Sell your great software to... to no one?

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CadSoft Guest Oct 24, 2017 5:33 PM (in response to CadSoft Guest) 409. Re: Eagle v8 licensing...

On 2017-10-17 10:45, Jorge Garcia wrote: On 1/19/2017 10:09 AM, Tilmann Reh wrote:

Rachael schrieb:

It's definitely possible, but whether they will entertain having two separate licensing systems within the software is another thing entirely. It might lead to unforeseen issues.

Not supporting that might also lead to issues - foreseen, however: many people won't subscribe and move on to other software. It doesn't make any sense to try to force users into a subscription model if they don't want that. In fact, I would rather switch to a completely different CAD than "upgrade" to a subscription license. It's all that easy: if there are no permanent offline licenses any more, many will leave - or simply continue to use their existing licenses. It's up to Autodesk to judge if that counts for them (and/or if eventually new customers who subscribe are able to compensate for that). Tilmann

Hello Tilmann, I hope you're doing well. I need you to please send me an e-mail to [email protected] at your earliest convenience. There's an important matter I need to discuss with you. Please let me know if there's anything else I can do for you. I think Tilmann made some valid statements. Large companies are often ok with subscription licensing. Small companies are usually not yet that's where the bulk of real innovation happens. Those are the potential large customers of tomorrow. As a consultant I am often asked "What kind of oscilloscope should we buy?" or "What CAD package could you recommend for us?". The answers are typically not second-guessed and they buy what was recommended. For CAD I used to say "Eagle" because it fit nicely at small companies and even mid-sized ones. However, since the dreaded switch to subscriptions I can no longer recommend Eagle. -Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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