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This is an archived post. You won't be able to vote or comment. this post was submitted on 17 Jun 2013

48

How much do you hate Websphere Application Server? (self.java )

48 POINTS (84% upvoted)

submitted 4 years ago by [deleted]

shortlink: https://redd.it/1gj0ne

Compared to Tomcat, JBoss, or other app servers? 53 comments

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[–] mcolley73 22 points 4 years ago

Ah, WebSphere. My nemesis. My most hated adversary. I hate WAS so much I started a hashtag called #thingsToDoWhileWebSphereStarts. WebSphere is such a bloated piece of nastiness, you can do quite a lot waiting for it to restart, though my go-to activity is still to sob and question my own existence. permalink

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[–] kanzenryu 6 points 4 years ago

News, Technical discussions, research papers and assorted things of interest related to the Java programming language

Websphere Process Server will make you beg to back to using Websphere App Server again. And Websphere Message Broker... (insert expletives here). permalink

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[–] TheBigLebowsky 4 points 4 years ago

NO programming help, NO learning Java related questions!

I had to literally pray for that bloatware to get started ! God bless those who use WAS ! permalink

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These have separate subreddits - see below.

[–] marmot1101 7 points 4 years ago

It's a pain in the ass, overwrought, generational heap of an app server that runs like a champ when you finally get it tuned correctly.

PL EASE SEEK HEL P WIT H JAVA PROGRAM M ING IN /R/J AVAHEL P!

JBoss has the right idea. Throw out your codebase and start fresh periodically. permalink

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Subreddit rules!

[–] stfm 3 points 4 years ago

Umm IBM did throw out their codebase permalink

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Upvote good content, downvote spam, don't pollute the discussion with things that should be settled in the vote count.

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[–] marmot1101 6 points 4 years ago

Do not post tutorials here! These should go in /r/learnjava. No programming help questions here! These should be posted in /r/javahelp No surveys, no job offers! Such content will be removed without warning.

I did not realize that. When did they do that? permalink

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[–] Akanaka 8 points 4 years ago

With Liberty. It's a Web Profile+ implementation now. You can download it directly in an self-extracting jar. It's some 60 MB and runs everywhere that Java runs (no special JDK required).

Join us on IRC freenode.net #reddit-java

If they can crank this up to the full Java EE profile (they're almost there), they have a winner! permalink

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REL AT ED SUB- REDDIT S:

[–] UnspeakableEvil 7 points 4 years ago

Programming

Which version are you referring to? Pre-WAS 8.5 is bloated and slooooow; the performance of the Liberty profile for WAS 8.5+ though is far more in line with the lighter app servers.

Computer Science CS Career Questions

Even then, it's worth noting that it's not really fair to compare the startup speed a full EE server with the startup speed of a far simpler web and servlet container. permalink

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[–] Akanaka 5 points 4 years ago

Java TIL

On my system JBoss EAP 6.1 starts up in 1.2 ~ 1.5 seconds. That's a full app server. Jetty is faster (500 ms, something like that), but the difference is pretty much unnoticeable.

Java Examples

WebSphere 8.5 is atrociously big and bulky, but it starts in 10 seconds or so from what I remember. It's impossible to install on Linux though, unless that Linux version is explicitly supported.

Oracle

JavaFX

J V M L A N G U A G E S

Liberty 8.5.5 starts in a second or so, but is so lazy that it takes another second or two on the first request. So startup time is mosly okay, but installing full was 8.5 is terrible. I also hate that none of the JASPIC auto modules I ever tried work on WebSphere.

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[–] henk53 3 points 4 years ago

Kotlin

JASPIC doesn't work on WebSphere because WebSphere requires user accounts to be present inside WebSphere itself (WebSphere calls this a user repository).

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None of the available JASPIC modules expect this, and thus JASPIC is virtually useless on WebSphere. permalink

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[–] thesystemx 2 points 4 years ago

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They really should fix JASPIC in the full WebSphere and then add it to Liberty. permalink

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[–] [deleted] 4 points 4 years ago

5.0 - 8.5 ...I'm not sure WHY you'd ever need all the bloat of Websphere. Never seen the need in 14 years of Java dev Unless you like EJB 2.0, but if you're using that in 2013, you have bigger problems.

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[–] UnspeakableEvil 7 points 4 years ago

a community for 9 years

Unless you like EJB 2.0, but if you're using that in 2013, you have bigger problems. Well yeah, but mostly because EJB 3 has been around for well over half a decade, and EE6 greatly simplifies the whole process. permalink

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[–] dev_ire 6 points 4 years ago

A lot of customers want the safety of something IBM approved, unfortunately that is what and why WAS is so popular. I however hate sqlserver (anything) and db2 (9.7 and backwards) more permalink

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[–] ramdaskm 6 points 4 years ago

bloatware permalink

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[–] Is_At_Work 6 points 4 years ago*

ME S S A G E THE MO DE RA TO RS

I hated 6.0 and 6.1 but I actually don't mind 7.0+ too much. I prefer it over Tomcat, JBoss (do you still have to configure by editing multiple XML files and copying rars around? Yuck!), etc. but GlassFish I definitely like more.

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I do like the WebSphere management interface and jython integration. EDIT: Startup on a powerful machine isn't bad, and when in doubt use JRebel permalink

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[–] beltorak 3 points 4 years ago <

disclaimer; rant below

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8 · 16 comments

personally, I can't bloody stand their half-assed jython integration.

What are your most used utility functions?

I mean seriously, it's two-thousand-fucking-thirteen, can we get a python port that was updated more recently than a fucking decade ago? Jython 2.1 released! Download the latest stable relase of Jython here and read a summary of recent changes. (31-dec-2001). What does 2.1 lack that more modern pythons (such as, say 2.2 - big stretch here) have? How about a boolean type and True and False? And new style classes, so I can have smarter list s and dict s? itertools and functools ? Reading the python docs, pay double attention to those "since" remarks! And if I want to do some remoting, you know so my build process can automatically deploy, but don't want to install websphere to my build box? Well, there's the thin client, but that sucks in completely new and imaginative ways. First off, not all scripts work the same between the thin client jython and the actual websphere jython. But before then, the thin client lacks the launcher shell script - wsadmin.bat/wsadmin.sh - and their "solution"? "just copy it from your actual websphere installation". Well my websphere installation runs on linux, and my dev/build machines are windows. thanks. Oh you provide some "example" that I have to manually hack to just get it to work? yeah. stellar. really. And if I want to use the python standard libs - you know import os and import sys ? Yeah, the thin client lacks that. Copy "jython.jar" from an existing installation, yeah, I figured; except - again - with disparate OSs now my windows jython scripts are trying to os.path and os.getenv in linux specific ways on a windows machine. really fucking special guys. I haven't had much time to work on this lately; eventually I will get back to it. I have better wsadmin launchers in the bin folder, so at least that's taken care of. And figuring out how to get real python packages which can actually use the wsadmin default objects (another sub-rant entirely) was interesting. See scriptLibraries/wsobjects.py for a rundown. permalink

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[–] henk53 1 point 4 years ago

There's a thread on the WAS forum now about even the super modernized Liberty 8.5.5 using an age old MyFaces (JSF) implementation. Two steps forward, one step back... permalink

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[–] beltorak 2 points 4 years ago

liberty is fairly young, so let's give 'em three years or so. they have an upward battle WRT the mess of a codebase that is inherited. permalink

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[–] henk53 1 point 4 years ago

What I understood from another post on the WAS forum is that for some reason or the other IBM found it necessary to ship a (massively?) modified version of MyFaces. Why they deemed that to be necessary is a mystery to me, but what's no mystery to me is that updating becomes incredibly hard then. Every other server as far as I know just bundles either Mojarra or MyFaces and uses the official SPI to integrate it into the platform. But not IBM... of course not IBM... Anyway, I understand the team is fighting an uphill battle and I will keep trying Liberty from time to time. It's a very brave and applaudable move on their part. permalink

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[–] beltorak 2 points 4 years ago

... IBM found it necessary to ship a (massively?) modified version of MyFaces ... Why they deemed that to be necessary is a mystery to me. Probably a leftover from the all-too-common NIH syndrome. They even ship with they're own version of the JDK/JRE/JVM. I found that Eclipse (deploying to WebSphere 7) was possible to run using a stock Sun/Oracle JDK, until I wanted to enable SSL, which required WebSphere global security, which required the IBM JDK. I hear the latest Liberty can run on a stock JDK however. permalink

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[–] beeman_nl 5 points 4 years ago

I hate it with a passion. Only positive thing is that you will be able to go lunch when you need to restart your devserver... ;-) permalink

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[–] Akanaka 5 points 4 years ago

Liberty starts in about a second. That's going to be a quick lunch then ;) permalink

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[–] beeman_nl 5 points 4 years ago

I did not know about this new thing called Liberty! Looks hopeful! !! permalink

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[–] beltorak 3 points 4 years ago

they did an AMA recently permalink

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[–] beeman_nl 4 points 4 years ago

Wow, there's actually guys like us behind WAS :-) thanks for linking it. I'm curious how this will further develop and if I can run Portal Server on this WAS instance... Most of my work in this area is portal development. Any clues on that? :-) permalink

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[–] beltorak 3 points 4 years ago

I don't think portal is part of Liberty yet; I don't really know. I just figured you'd be interested in the AMA. permalink

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[–] beeman_nl 1 point 4 years ago

Yeah, certainly good to read! :-) We'll see about the Portal Server permalink

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[–] UnspeakableEvil 3 points 4 years ago

As a fellow Portal developer, I certainly hope so - however WAS's startup time is predominantly due to the Portal applications starting up (around 75%, higher the more custom applications are deployed) I'm not holding my breath. Still, any reduction's a step in the right direction. permalink

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[–] beeman_nl 2 points 4 years ago

Indeed, the Portal Server is the big one... I once figured there were some options to disable some of the apps it loads by default but it rendered my instance useless... And it takes too much time to test this on a trial-and-error basis... :) Good to see there in fact is a community of WAS/PortalServer developers! permalink

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[–] beeman_nl 3 points 4 years ago

Even better, it looks like they are starting to support OS X as development environment! :) permalink

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[–] thesystemx 3 points 4 years ago

Runs perfectly on OS X indeed. permalink

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[–] Dnile1000BC 3 points 4 years ago

WAS was my nemesis for a while. My only question is, why does everything have to be so hard?! I try to deploy to a cluster. I spend hours literally starting up / shutting down to no avail :(. WAS 7.0+ here. permalink

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[–] [deleted] 3 points 4 years ago

I don't know anything about web sphere, but if it is anything like web logic I feel your pain. permalink

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[–] [deleted] 3 points 4 years ago

Funny, wait until you get into Websphere Enterprise Service Bus. WAS is a joy to go back to at that point. permalink

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[–] Temujin_123 3 points 4 years ago

About as much as I hate Miami Vice suits with neon t-shirts. Luckily, both died out ages ago. permalink

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[–] Rockytriton 3 points 4 years ago

A lot less than I did 10 years ago, but yeah, still a lot permalink

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[–] harmonicPersistence 3 points 4 years ago

I can't stand anything below WAS v8.0. My one gripe about v8.0 that really pissed me off is the fact that, if I override the POS version of MyFaces it packages via setting the classloader policy to PARENT_LAST, you lose the ability to use CDI! WTF?!?! I tried employing JSF 2.2 using that go-to tactic, but I wasn't going to sacrifice CDI. Other than that, I think WAS v8.0 is powerful...but only if you can figure out how to set the damn features up. My biggest criticism is custom properties that give you no indication as to what Map you're altering behind the scenes. Setting up a custom user registry within a federated repository is one example. Another is overriding the default smtp port for a Mail Session. Just give me a clue so I don't have to waste time figuring out what your Custom Properties do! I also can't get over the abomination that is the how-to on implementing your own custom code implementation for a JDBC User Registry. Seriously, I spent weeks trying to find any example that retrieved users from a db instead of a damn flat file. I think I only found 2, but they were from WAS 4 examples. W.T.F.?!?! I'm stuck developing for WAS v6.1 and v8.0. I don't even want to tease myself by messing with v8.5, v8.5.5, or any of the Liberty versions. Good luck getting Arquillian working on WAS too! GlassFish or TomEE FTW! permalink

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[–] henk53 1 point 4 years ago*

if I override the POS version of MyFaces it packages via setting the classloader policy to PARENT_LAST, you lose the ability to use CDI! WTF?!?! Sad... very sad! My guess is that this is caused by WAS using its own modified version of Myfaces and that one of the reasons that they modified it is to integrate CDI. But, MyFaces has an SPI to do just this! I don't understand why IBM didn't use it. Maybe they wanted to differentiate themselves from the other servers and added all kinds of "feature added" stuff (which of course nobody cares for), but that's just speculation from my part. I also can't get over the abomination that is the how-to on implementing your own custom code implementation for a JDBC User Registry. This is problematic indeed. I think this is also related to the problems with JASPIC. In that case there should be no user registry or repository, since the user details should be completely controlled by the JASPIC module. Unfortunately IBM insists on JASPIC usernames and roles being available in its internal user registry (or the JASPIC module being paired by a user registry that can read the same source as the JASPIC module does). This is completely against the principle of JASPIC authentication modules, which should be portable between application servers. permalink

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[–] stovecap 2 points 4 years ago

Use Liberty! Problem solved. permalink

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[–] workerific 1 point 4 years ago

If your not a websphere admin for a living it does indeed suck, but just like any large piece of corporate software it's very complex and requires a lot of knowledge specific to just that product. I imagine people have the same gripe with DB2 or Oracle. permalink

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[–] stfm 4 points 4 years ago

Oracle dB or oracle everything? The dB is quite good. Everything else is crazy. permalink

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[–] beltorak 3 points 4 years ago

agreed; the db is quite stellar. everything else - like the installer, especially for *nix platforms - leaves much to be desired. permalink

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[–] henk53 2 points 4 years ago

The WebSphere (non-Liberty) installer for Linux sucks too. I don't think anyone ever got it to run on Ubuntu, despite Ubuntu being the most popular desktop distribution. permalink

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[–] beltorak 4 points 4 years ago

I had that issue with v7 and banged my head against the wall for weeks. Then I installed the ia32-libs on my 64 bit platform. Perhaps that's the reason? The error is "cannot find java"...... permalink

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[–] henk53 2 points 4 years ago

The problem I had and about which I saw posts and questions as well is that simply "nothing happens". You try several to run several things that look like they could be installers from the unpackaged download. See e.g. this one: http://askubuntu.com/questions/272790/websphere-application-server-8-5-can-be-installed-on-ubuntu-12-04-andhow and this one: http://serverfault.com/questions/474528/how-to-install-websphere-8-5-from-linux-zipfile The last one indeed advises to install the ia32-libs, but the error is different and simply says "not found". I think it should have said "Java not found". Really confusing... permalink

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[–] beltorak 3 points 4 years ago

the last one does say "installc not found" which clearly it is there. the v7 issue is similar, the executable just happens to be "java" in that case. In either case it should not say not found; but I don't know if that's the fault of linux or IBM's shell script. I'm going to go ahead and blame IBM since every other app server can run without all this custom crap. I honestly can't think of a single reason why you would have a compiled installer on linux instead of a pure shell script. Of course that would just delay the problem until you try to run the beast. permalink

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[–] NiteLite 1 point 4 years ago

We use WAS 7.5 in production and I have no issues with it as an application server running production code. For development we use a locally-installed Tomcat instance because of the sluggishness of WAS when doing a lot of redeploys/restarts. Our tests run on WAS to catch any of the small differences between the development environment and production. JRebel help WAS development a bit, but it also has its problems. We might move over to Tomcat for production as well, if someone has some tips regarding a nice interface for deploying apps and managing clustered application servers? permalink

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[–] henk53 1 point 4 years ago

For development we use a locally-installed Tomcat instance because of the sluggishness of WAS when doing a lot of redeploys/restarts. I understand you guys don't have a choice, but really, this is wrong. This should not be the way you develop your own software. I suggest using TomEE though, and not Tomcat, or maybe JBoss. JBoss has an interface to do this stuff, TomEE is more barebones. See e.g. http://redhat.com/products/jbossenterprisemiddleware/operations-network permalink

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[–] NiteLite 1 point 4 years ago*

What are the advantages of using TomEE or JBoss instead of Tomcat when developing ? Quick edit: I can see TomEE is basically Tomcat + a bunch of jars that give you JPA / transactions / security etc. The way we have ended up doing this is bundling those jars with the application. I can see the advantage of running them as part of the app server instead of the application (since the production app server already has a lot of this functionally). permalink

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[–] henk53 1 point 4 years ago

Indeed, it's basically that the bundling and the integration has already been done for you. It's not unlike Linux distributions. Sure, everyone (well sort of) can cobble together their own distro from scratch, and occasionally it pays off, but most people just download Ubuntu as a base and then customize if necessary. permalink

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[–] dartmanx 0 points 4 years ago

My personal dislike: Weblogic. Because Oracle. permalink

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[–] Is_At_Work 2 points 4 years ago

They acquired it from BEA, along with some other cool technologies. I only used it around WebLogic 7, all I can remember is horrible startup times and horrible JSP compilation times (plus something about an EJB compiler that I kicked out of my memories). We switched from that to WebSphere 6.0 and life was much better. permalink

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