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Leica and Rangefinders
Leica M4-2 - black sheep or not ? Discussion in 'Leica and Rangefinders' started by williamw, Jan 26, 2005.
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Hi, I've been offered to buy a Leica M4-2 which is absolutely brand new. The seller would like 750 euro for it. I had a chance to have a look at it and try it for short time ( didn't put any film through it though ) and everything seems to be working perfectly. Seller also claims it has an 0.85 finder and it seemed to have a bit higher magnification than my 0.72 M6 but I'm not sure.
williamw
I've read/heard somewhere that the M4-2 model was some kind of " cheaper" model during the late seventies. Correct ? What about the finder - is it .72 or .85 ? Is the price OK ? Thanks to those of you who know more about this model. Wilhelm williamw, Jan 26, 2005
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see here: http://www.nemeng.com/leica/016b.shtml he advises to, "steer well clear of these (serial #s: 1 468 001 - 1482 000)"... hope that helps
monochrome11
monochrome11, Jan 26, 2005
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The finder the camera came with was .72. It's hard to imagine that any M4-2 bodies are out there that haven't been used, unless it's one of Leica's silly commemorative models, you know, commemorating Ernst Leitz's great grandson's first tooth or the discovery of some obscure toenail fungus using a Leitz microscope.
peter_white|2
peter_white|2, Jan 26, 2005
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"Leica M4-2 - black sheep or not?" No. The M4-2 literally saved the M line, which had been discontinued for over two years up until that time. It was a "simplified" version of the M4 (made in Canada, of course), with simplified engraving, no self-timer, but has a winder mechanism, and the "right or replace" range finder (the same finder and winder mechanism we have in M7/P cameras today). As production proceeded, things were further cheapened (such as the removal of the RF condenser).
billblackwellphotog raphy
It was said to be quirky when it was first released, but as production proceeded the "bugs" were worked out. Any issues the early M4-2 cameras might have had should have been long repaired by now. It is overall "less than" the M4, but I dare say it is better built than any M camera made since. I would encourage you to buy it. But forget the matching winder (of the time). billblackwellphotography, Jan 26, 2005
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"Seller also claims it has an 0.85 finder..." The camera was made with a .72 finder. If it's an "upgraded" .85 finder the 35mm frame lines will be very tight.
billblackwellphotog raphy
billblackwellphotography, Jan 26, 2005
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William, Since they werenot all made in black, there could be some chrome sheep out there. Jerry
jerry_lehrer
jerry_lehrer, Jan 26, 2005
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I've owned one for over 20 years. It has a .72 finder and has proven to be very reliable for me. I've seen them here in the US going for about $700-800 USD.
paulr
paulr, Jan 26, 2005
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William, I can only speak from my (very) limited experience, but I recently bought a late serial no. M4-2 in "user" condition. The vulcanite is shot. It's a wonderful camera, and I'm having lots of fun with it. It seems built like a tank to me, and I'm not at all worried about it continuing to work well for many years. And if not, a couple of hundred dollar CLA will put it right back where it is today.
rgeorge911
I know it's not the most desirable model out there. However, it was what I could afford, and I'm very happy with my purchase. Good luck! Reed rgeorge911, Jan 26, 2005
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Thanks to all for all the advice. I'll check the serial numbers just to make sure. I guess I will think about it for a few days and then we'll see.. Cheers, Wilhelm
williamw
williamw, Jan 26, 2005
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A camera store near here recently took in 2 of them, one was spotless mint and had the original box, papers and un-used strap, the other one had been used. The mint one's viewfinder was fogged and the shutter needed service, due to sitting for a couple decades in the box. The non-mint one had a clear finder and a working shutter. So make sure it's working properly, especially since the seller seems a bit unsure of what he's got. According to those whose business it is to know, Leica never sold the .85 or .58 rangefinders unless a repair shop sent back a broken one of the same magnification, so unless someone swapped it with a .85 M6 rangefinder, what he's seeing is the slightly larger frameline coverage by models prior to the M4-P.
ben z
ben z, Jan 26, 2005
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Buy it! I paid 750 euro for a well worn one and I thought that was a good price, well for europe anyway. As said above, avoid the serial number starting in 14xxxxx (first batch of 2000). Later models (starting 15xxxxx) should be more reliable. Also the first few 15xxxxx batches are preferable as they still have the much discussed viewfinder condenser lens whose ommission in the later M4-2 runs through to early M7 & MP runs caused occassional rangefinder patch flare.
andy_aitken
Personally, I think the M4-2 is the best of the post M4 Leicas for the following reasons: 1. Condenser lens still there (mostly) 2. Nice price 3. (More) Accurate framelines 3. No pesky 28mm/75mm framelines 4. Affordable in black - but less so in chrome 5. Looks nice; no annoying red dot. Still says "Leitz" on the top plate (even if not engraved) Good luck andy_aitken, Jan 26, 2005
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You can get an M3 for the same money -- there's no comparision, quality-wise, with the M4-2 or, IMHO, with any other M.
paul_neuthaler
paul_neuthaler, Jan 26, 2005
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...Just as the M3 can't compare, functionality-wise with all the M's that followed it. From a user's standpoint, there's more to life than an engraved top plate, pretty as they are, and the M4-2 has the built-in quick load take-up spool the M3 lacks, plus a 35mm finder without all the clutter of the useless framelines of the M's that came after it. It's a fine camera, and certainly a better value on the used market than the over-priced M4-P.
kevin m.
kevin m., Jan 26, 2005
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M4-2 is the only camera that has the uncluttered viewfinder of the M4 and will take a TA rapidwinder. I rather dislike the M6's (and later) cornerless 90mm frameline compared to M4-2 and prior vf's. The 75 frameline is no use to me and clutters the otherwise clean 50 mm lines. 28mm likewise not needed by me and not visible to eyeglass wearers anyway (my Minolta CLE vf is perfect for the 28). Otherwise has all the mid- 1960's Leica M improvements over the M2/M3 plus hot shoe. It is also the only affordable way to get a clean M4 type viewfinder camera in black finish without having to pay collector's prices for black paint (not including M5). The M4-2 VF, I might add, does not suffer as much from the infamous late M4-P and M6 viewfinder flare. If your camera in question has an M6 0.85 VF then it will have the worst flare of all. The M4-2's rangefinder vertical alignment adjustment doesn't need an expensive tool, just a screwdriver. Nor does it suffer from bearing attention gathering blemishes like a big red dot or 1 to 2 silvery bands on the VF window. Sure I miss a built in meter but I am more accurate with incident metering and once exposure is set I don't miss those big bright distracting LEDs in the VF. I can throw the camera, shutter cocked, into my bag and not worry about battery drain. The M4-2 is one of the cheapest M's to obtain yet was I believe the rarest M type Leica produced i.e. shortest production run of a M series.
r_quan
Dispite its detractors the M4-2 has a unique niche in the M world. r_quan, Jan 26, 2005
#1
I agree, the M4-2 is the best bargain, but only in the US. 750 Euros for a "well worn" M4-2 is almost $1000 these days, which will buy a very nice M2/M3/M4 here. I know, having dealt in CLA'ed M3 and M4 right here for less $$$ than a non-CLA'ed offered in the original post. An M2 with a quick loading kit is a far better bargain, IMHO. Sure, fit for service the M4-2 will function fine, but it doesn't have the adjusted for purpose of the crafted M2/M3/M4, it's fit for or disposal manufacturing. Form should follow function; afterall, how many of you uses the self-timer and/or the preview lever (N/A in this case). For foreign buyers, buy from the US and get the seller to list the package as a gift or for repair to avoid the taxes. It is not unethical to avoid double taxation, IMHO.
stephen_w.
stephen_w., Jan 26, 2005
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Regarding the viewfinder it was most likely a .72 and not a .85. I was probably a bit confused as I'm used to my M6 finder. I'll still have to check the serial n? but the camera is still in it's original box and is really like brand new. Looks like it has never been used at all - no marks, scrathes, etc. I've seen a few of you mentioned the M3 also. The seller also has one for 650 euro. It's a single stroke and in fairly good shape though with parts of vulcanite missing on the back by the ASA wheel. Guess that can be fixed ?
williamw
Thanks again for all the advice. Guess I'll have to make up my mind....one day. williamw, Jan 26, 2005
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The M4-2 I had been looking at was unfortunately in between the "bad" serials n? mentioned above. So I guess I will let it go....might have a look at the M3 though. Cheers, W.
williamw
williamw, Jan 27, 2005
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William, if you were to buy that M4-2 you should factor in the cost of a CLA too as part of the cost. Leicas that sit around and get little use are often worse off than those that have been out for plenty of fresh air and exercise in their lifetime. I would talk with a good Leica repair person first and find out what early "bugs" they can correct, if any are needed on this camera, during a CLA.
jim_a
jim_a, Jan 27, 2005
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Jim, Yes, I suppose that a CLA would probably have to be added to make sure it would be in correct working condition. As I said, I'll will most likely let his one go. Btw, I really like your webpage. Lots of great pics and brilliant artice on BO printing. I've been using this method since about 6 months and I'm very happy about the results.
williamw
Cheers, W. williamw, Jan 27, 2005
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Ask Sherry Krauter about the M4-2. Don't hold the phone too close to your ear, though.
john|15
john|15, Jan 27, 2005
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Well ,well.... I got myself the M3...just couldn't resist...weak that I'm.. Got a good price with 6 months warranty and it's has been CLA'd 4 months ago ( I was shown the paperwork ). Cheers, W.
williamw
williamw, Jan 28, 2005
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Congrats Wilhelm. You can't go wrong with an M3 (Leica got it right the first time, I think). I'm looking forward to seeing some pix.
billblackwellphotog raphy
billblackwellphotography, Jan 28, 2005
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Just got an M4-2. Happy as a peach.
akiva
Yes that is a Canon 50/1.2 lens akiva, Sep 11, 2016
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