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must have been Discussion in 'Spanish-English Grammar / Gramática Español-Inglés' started by Doc J, May 16, 2012. Previous Thread Next Thread
Doc J
Senior Member La Paz, Mexico U. S. English
Hello everyone, I just read through many threads on this topic, and now I am more confused than ever. There seems to be a big disagreement concerning the use of deber, most likely because it is used differently in the various latin countries and in Spain and because of the frequent mix up of must and should. But please tell me if these forms are correct. Thanks I must have been angry/Yo debo haber estado enojado Sandra must have been angry/Sandra debe haber estado enojada Jim and Tom must have been angry/Jim y Tom deben haber estado enojados I must have forgotten/Yo debo haber olvidado Sandra must have forgotten/Sandra debe haber olvidado Jim and Tom must have forgotten/Jim y Tom deben haber olvidado In some cases, I saw that debe, debo, and deben were replaced by debio, debí, and deberion in some threads, all of which seem to my mind to mean should not must. Thanks again. Doc J, May 16, 2012
#1
Doc J said:
Hello everyone, I just read through many threads on this topic, and now I am more confused than ever. There seems to be a big disagreement concerning the use of deber, most likely because it is used differently in the various latin countries and in Spain and because of the frequent mix up of must and should. But please tell me if these forms are correct. Thanks
duvija
Senior Member
I must have been angry/Yo debo haber estado enojado
Chicago Spanish - Uruguay
Sandra must have been angry/Sandra debe haber estado enojada Click to expand... Jim and Tom must have been angry/Jim y Tom deben haber estado enojados
There is no clear line dividing the two. You're right in thinking they don't always translate identically. duvija, May 16, 2012
#2
Doc J said:
In some cases, I saw that debe, debo, and deben were replaced by debio, debí, and deberion in some threads, all of which seem to my mind to mean should not must...
No siempre, se usa el mismo verbo pero el sentido con esos tiempos puede ser perfectamente must. Ejemplos: Linton
Senior Member
- Un revisor que te multa por no llevar billete: "Usted debió comprarlo antes de subir"
Español
- "Los invitados debieron pagar entre todos los desperfectos causados" - "Sé que debí llamar antes, pero no tenía cobertura". Con frecuencia es necesario aclarar el sentido, por la confusión entre ambos significados. Saludos. Linton, May 16, 2012
julivertmeu Member
Switzerland Spanish - Spain (Barcelona)
#3
I learnt the rule must=debo/tengo que and should=debería. So: * I should go = debería irme * I must go = debo irme/me tengo que ir And now for the (difficult) part with "must have been" and "must have + " * Sandra must have forgotten it = Sandra tiene que haberse olvidado | Sandra debe *de* haberse olvidado And that's the weird part: why "debe de" and not "debe"? "debe de" is used to convey supposition while "debe" expresses obligation. (There's lots of confusion between "debe" and "debe de", even in Spanish TV and newspapers.) In this case, Sandra didn't have to forget it, nobody told her to forget, in fact I hoped she didn't, I just guess that she forgot. So why would I also use "tiene que" above, which expresses obligation? I'm afraid I can't answer the question, I just would... An example of my own: * It must have been love = Tiene que haber sido amor/Debe *de* haber sido amor Exactly the same construction with "debe de". Is this Spain's Spanish (or just me), or do other native Spanish speakers share my views with "debe de"? Doc J: Can you explain the context in which you would use the phrase "I must have been angry" or "Sandra must have been angry"? Regards. julivertmeu, May 16, 2012
#4
Thanks, Duvija, Linton, and Julivertmeu. You guys offer some very good insights into the difficulties presented by these forms. Evidently, must refers to strong obligation when in the present tense:
Doc J
Senior Member La Paz, Mexico U. S. English
Ex. Johnny, You must stop acting like a fool in front of your teachers. But not so in the past perfect form. In this tense, it serves, primarily it seems, as a means of identifying something with certainty, a person, an emotion (anger), or some other. Ex. Sorry, Wilma, I did not realize that I broke your favorite cup. I must have been really drunk last night. Ex. I do not remember what I said to Dora at that time. For sure, I must have been very angry to challenge her. Doc J, May 16, 2012
#5
Let's wait and see what others say.
Doc J
Senior Member La Paz, Mexico U. S. English
Doc J, May 17, 2012
#6
Thanks for the examples, that puts your questions in context.
julivertmeu Member
Switzerland Spanish - Spain (Barcelona)
I would translate it as follows: Sorry, Wilma, I did not realize that I broke your favorite cup. I must have been really drunk last night. = Perdona Wilma, no me di cuenta de que rompí tu taza favorita, tenía que estar muy borracho ayer noche/debía de estar muy borracho ayer noche. I do not remember what I said to Dora at that time. For sure, I must have been very angry to challenge her. = Ya no me acuerdo de lo que le dije a Dora esa vez, pero por supuesto, tenía que estar muy enfadado para retarla/debía de estar muy enfadado para retarla. Hope this helps. julivertmeu, May 19, 2012
#7
Thanks, Julivertmeu, for the translations. I have only one question. Would you use the imperfect instead of the preterit? If yes, please tell me why. Thanks.
Doc J
Senior Member La Paz, Mexico U. S. English
Sorry, Wilma, I did not realize that I broke your favorite cup. I must have been really drunk last night. = Perdona Wilma, no me di cuenta de que rompí tu taza favorita, tenía/tuve? que estar muy borracho ayer noche/debía de estar muy borracho ayer noche. I do not remember what I said to Dora at that time. For sure, I must have been very angry to challenge her. = Ya no me acuerdo de lo que le dije a Dora esa vez, pero por supuesto, tenía/tuve? que estar muy enfadado para retarla/debía de estar muy enfadado para retarla. Hope this helps.[/QUOTE] Doc J, May 19, 2012
#8
Although "tuve" kind of makes sense, it sounds weird, I really prefer the imperfect "tenía". Why? Probably because being drunk or angry are not instantaneous but ongoing actions (and any other examples I can think of (desperate, happy, etc) are also ongoing in the past).
julivertmeu Member
Switzerland Spanish - Spain (Barcelona)
Anyway, if you aren't eagerly trying to use that English construction in Spanish (which otherwise seems perfectly correct to me) you could say it more simply (though loosing some intensity): * Perdona Wilma, no me di cuenta de que rompí tu taza favorita, creo que estaba muy borracho ayer noche. * Ya no me acuerdo de lo que le dije a Dora esa vez, creo que estaba tan enfadado con ella que me atreví a retarla. [I guess you could also say this in English: * Sorry, Wilma, I did not realize that I broke your favorite cup. I think I was really drunk last night.] Again, here I'd use imperfect "estaba" instead of preterit "estuve" for the same reason as explained above. Last edited: May 21, 2012 julivertmeu, May 21, 2012
Doc J
Senior Member La Paz, Mexico
#9
Thanks, Jujlvertmeu. Excellent explanations that make logical sense. As you know, dealing with these two tenses in Spanish is difficult for non-native speakers, but I understand your point of view perfectly. Thanks again, and take care.
U. S. English
Doc J, May 21, 2012
#10
Yeah, tenses are difficult stuff, I'm glad I could help!
julivertmeu Member
Switzerland Spanish - Spain (Barcelona)
julivertmeu, May 21, 2012
#11
Cuánto me gusta este hilo. Me ha ayudado mucho. Entonces, ¿es verdad que "deber que" no existe/suena muy raro? Gracias, Mike
NYShakes, May 21, 2012
NYShakes
#12
Senior Member Northeast US English - US
Hola Mike, no, "deber que" no se puede decir (con "deber" como verbo, claro. Como nombre se puede decir: El deber que hemos aceptado..., en el sentido de "duty" -pero no es el caso del que hablamos). ¿Qué frase en inglés crees que se puede traducir con "deber que"?
julivertmeu Member
Switzerland Spanish - Spain (Barcelona)
Lo que sí existe es "tener que": Tengo que irme = Debo irme = I must go Saludos. Last edited: May 21, 2012 julivertmeu, May 21, 2012
#13
Gracias, julivertmeu. Creía que "deber que" se podría usar así: "Debo que pagar por la cena" (I should pay for dinner.) Pero gracias a lo que me has enseñado, ahora emplearía "deber de." ¿Tuvo sentido lo que escribí? Mike NYShakes
NYShakes, May 22, 2012
Senior Member
#14
Northeast US English - US
NYShakes said:
Creía que "deber que" se podría usar así: "Debo que pagar por la cena" (I should pay for dinner.) No: I must pay... Should --> debería. Pero gracias a lo que me has enseñado, ahora emplearía "deber de." Al menos por acá, sin el de: Debo ir a xxx, Debo concentrarme en xxx.
Juan Jacob Vilalta, May 22, 2012
Juan Jacob Vilalta
#15
Banned
México Español/Francés
Gracias, Juan. Entonces, para ver si yo comprenda... I should pay... - Debería pagar... They must be lying - Deben (de) decir mentiras They must have been joking - Deben haber estado de broma
NYShakes
Senior Member Northeast US English - US
¿No? Mike NYShakes, May 22, 2012
#16
NYShakes said:
Gracias, Juan. Entonces, para ver si yo comprendo... I should pay... - Debería pagar... They must be lying - Deben (de) decir mentiras No --> They must lie. Shoud be: Deben estar mintiendo.
Juan Jacob Vilalta
They must have been joking - Deben haber estado de broma Deben haber estado bromeando. (bastante pesado en español, pero bueno)
Banned
México Español/Francés
ing --> gerundio en español. Eating --> comiendo, etc. Click to expand...
¿No? Juan Jacob Vilalta, May 22, 2012
#17
Thanks, you guys, for all your extra effort. Take care.
Doc J
Senior Member La Paz, Mexico U. S. English
Doc J, May 23, 2012
#18
Many, many thanks from me, too. I know these are many examples, but if I might...
Debo cocinar = I must cook (implies obligation) Debería cocinar = I should/ought to cook NYShakes
Debía de haber cocinado = I must have cooked (supposition) - That one doesn't really work because who forgets if they cooked?
Senior Member Northeast US English - US
But...
Debía de haber olvidado darle cuenta - I must have forgotten to tell him/her Debía de estar cocinando cuanto me llamó - I must have been cooking when you called Debo de cocinar (o "tengo que cocinar) = I have to cook - I've read that the "debo de" is strange and to not use it. Debía de conocerte de antes = I must have seen you before. Debía de te haber conocido de antes = I must have seen you before. (from what I'm *trying* to understand, this is right, but it seems "wordy.") Debía de le haber dicho = I must have told her. Debería charlar con ella = I should chat with her. Debiera haber charlado con ella = I should have had a chat with her.
Also, "para ver si..." wouldn't cue the subjunctive? That surprised me.
Again, MANY thanks. Mike NYShakes, May 27, 2012
#19
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