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Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Pipe welding estimates By Cactusthewelder
Date 11-12-2009 02:25 Edited 11-12-2009 03:17
Anyone know of a program or formula to figure the cost of a welded pipe joint. The pipe I have is 72" Dia. 1/2 inch wall 30degree bevel. With a backer strap. I am trying to figure a cost per weld and a reasonable time frame for welding it. It is a 18 pass weld per joint By Johnyutah
Date 11-12-2009 03:15
I think it's 103" per hour so that would be around 2hrs per pass 36 hrs total I think would be close. Of course you would still have to figure your fit up time and all that good stuff into that. By strother
Date 11-12-2009 03:41 Edited 11-12-2009 11:59
Weld a test plate 1/2 thick x1ft.long with the same bevel and backing as the pipe. Keep up with the time multiply that X the circumfence of the pipe , then allow for fit up. Wait a minute I forgot you were welding pipe which so much harder to weld . We had better ask a pipe welder. Sorry couldn't help but stir that one back up! By Cactusthewelder
Date 11-12-2009 13:57
Here is a little more to Stir. The test required to weld it is a PLATE TEST ! By welderbrent
Date 11-12-2009 14:43 Edited 11-12-2009 14:46
Cactus, Don't know what code you are welding this job to, but yes, in D1.1 Section 4 I believe, a plate test groove weld all position qualifies you to work butt weld pipe over 24 " in OD (hope I got that right, no book right in front of me. Corrections please if I made a mistake.). And, AWWA D100 defers several items to D1.1. Again, not sure what code you are working from. The pipe you are talking about is so large they figure (as was said by someone in another thread) 'Just like welding plate'. Boy am I going to get hit for that one. But it is obvious by the code's allowance that that is what the code writers think. Position is not as critical, the ability to manipulate weld around small diameters not so problematic, etc once you reach a certain size, which they calculate to be 24". Calculating time for bidding versus weldout time for the same piece are hopefully not the same. Otherwise you won't make any money. On the flip side, get too much difference and you won't make any money because someone else will get the job. Some other posters have some good calculators suggested. But experience is always the best source. Pipe that size should take fewer hours per foot because you will have less set up time, fewer moves per foot of weld, get on a roll and go. Just a couple of thoughts from my own two tin pennies worth. Have a Great Day, Brent By Cactusthewelder
Date 11-12-2009 15:01
The Job is a TXDOT job and their procedure calls for a 1" Plate test. However, Their procedure also calls for this weld to be made with 1/8 7018 Rods. I am in the process of getting that changed. It would take about 6 weeks to do that weld with a 1/8 rod. I was the one who said "Pipe is nothing more than a round Plate" I really thought it was funny when I got the testing info for this job ! A PLATE TEST TO WELD PIPE ! MADE MY DAY!! By strother
Date 11-12-2009 23:22
Sounds like GA. DOT , 1" plate 3g and 4g covers everything except pipe under 18" and everything in the feild has to be stick welded 7018. If you can get TXDOT to let you run fluxcore I would consider putting up something to sheild the wind and running a gas sheilded fluxcore wire you'll get a cleaner weld and better deposit rates. By CBlank1186
Date 11-13-2009 03:27
me and my cousin were welding 96in temporary casing 1 inch thick for a bridge contractor and there procedure only called for 1/8 7018 rods with backing strip, we were completing welds every two and a half days working 12 hour shifts By okwelder82
Date 11-13-2009 14:21
That will be the first time I have ever heard of a plate test for a pipe job. By Cactusthewelder
Date 11-13-2009 14:25
Well I guess you learned something new By okwelder82
Date 11-13-2009 14:33
Well Cactus if you think that is the norm you are mistaken. By Lawrence
Date 11-13-2009 14:56
I find myself in the strange position of backing Cactus. (not that he needs it) But the guy did say it was a state DOT requirement... Nothin much more normal than a state requirement. Do you think the state welding authorities heard about Cactus outrageous statement that pipe and plate are welded much the same and said something like. "Well lets give our buddy Dwayne a chance to post a keenly ironic statement on an obscure welding chat forum?" Thats the ticket. By okwelder82
Date 11-13-2009 15:06
Im just saying your not going to go to a pipeline job or a power plant for a pipe welding job and take a plate test. By ssbn727
Date 11-16-2009 02:56
That's not necessarily true because as a boilermaker, I had to qualify on both plate and pipe at many different shut downs... Some were open root, and other had a backing strip, and some had both plate & pipe with pipe either being open root, or with backing rings or consumable inserts... It all depended on which contractor you were working with until the boilermakers started to Common Arc welding qualification program which was probably implemented way before most of the younger folks in here even learned how to weld!!! ;) ;) ;) Nowadays things are more standardized for most of the bigger GC's who are enrolled in the program which really in effect, makes it easier for the welder and GC (General Contractor) because, so long as the welder is proficient and has been active within 6 months, there's almost no need to qualify from most of the bigger GC's to GC's because the tests are the same unless it is something that special and the welder isn't qualified to the WPS yet. The UA (Pipefitters union) has a similar system in place as well. Respectfully, Henry By waccobird
Date 11-13-2009 15:08
Jon You don't read many code books huh? By okwelder82
Date 11-13-2009 15:21
I never said anything about code books I said if you go to test for a pipe welding job 99% of the time your going to take a pipe welding test By DONKEY PUNCH
Date 11-14-2009 04:05
wako bird u havent tested on any pipeline jobs have you By cmays
Date 11-16-2009 01:49
ASME Sec 9 as I read it and have read it in the past open groove plate tested qualifies the welder for 24inch and larger pipe with thickness limitations. Youre only qualified as far as twice the thickness you tested on. I qualify my guys on 2 inch XX with each process seperately this gets you more than qualified for all my client's requirements pending specific procedure qualifications. I will qualify my own procedures and qualify my guys to them. It takes sometime and paperwork but sure makes it easy if a client needs a prequalified procedure and I have my own in house. I have a qualified wps for large dia pipe butt and lap joints we used on a water line job. Weld times ran about 20-24 hours on 72 inch and 12-15 hrs on 36 inch. WPS America also has some Qualified Procedures that might fit what you need better Cactus. It sure saves alot of head ache already having a qualified wps. By ctacker
Date 11-16-2009 01:59
you must be thinking D1.1 for 24 inch and larger, I don't have ASME IX avail but if memory serves me right a plate test will qualify for 2.75"(or something in the neighborhood) and larger pipe. By cmays
Date 11-16-2009 02:04
I dont have in in front of me but just got throught going through it last week and its there. Open groove on 6 inch pipe will get you 2 1/2 dia and up (this is why we qualify on 2 inch)with thickness limitations ofcourse. The open groove on plate will only get 24 inch above. By ctacker
Date 11-17-2009 03:57
I don't have access to ASME anymore for the time being, But all of our weld engineers and myself used to give a plate test, that qualified for 2-7/8" pipe and larger, if we had to go smaller a 2" would cover 1" and up (maybe someone that has access to ASME IX can verify this for me) I cant ever remember having the 24" limits under ASME IX. I'm in no position to argue the point without a copy of the code! but I still think a plate in ASME IX should cover 2.875+" By pipewelder_1999
Date 11-18-2009 13:04
You are correct. A plate test will quaify welding pipe in certain positions down to 2-7/8" OD. If you test on 2G,3G and 4G, you are only qualified to make pipe welds (grooves) in the flat and horizontal position. So even though you can qualify on plate, the position restrictions limit you to rolled out pipe or pipe that runs vertical. Of course all other variable ranges need to be correct. Gerald Austin By cmays
Date 11-19-2009 03:35
I left out the part about all positions. The reason we qualify on 2 inch XX in 6g covers that material,with that process, butt welds, fillet welds, all positions, up to 2xs the wall thickness and 2 inch to unlimited. I dont completely agree about it covering fillet welds but thats for another post. By tnhnt
Date 11-14-2009 06:40
Have welded alot of big inch pipe and it has always been a plate test. By daryl morgan
Date 11-15-2009 03:13
hey cactus, we just finished an 84" job for the city of fort worth, the test was the same 3g and 4g. welded the whole thing out 3/16 5p, took 24 hrs per. By tnhnt
Date 11-20-2009 08:32
Did a job there in Rockwall back in 07 on some 84" by 3/8 wall running .045 dual shield and was knocking them out in 1hr 20min. By Cumminsguy71
Date 11-12-2009 22:52
Your right Brent, wow, I actually know something. When I did my plate tests/procedures(AWSD1.1) it qualified me for pipe over 24". I was told the same thing as what you said, "it's so big it's just like welding a 1G, 4G and 2 3G's. Did you say 1/8" on a 72" pipe Cactus!! Wow! That sounds like it might take awhile! By Cactusthewelder
Date 11-12-2009 23:59
YEP that is what the procedure said ! But, I am in the process of changing that By makeithot
Date 11-12-2009 19:18
Isn't that just some of that flat pipe. lol By F-17
Date 11-12-2009 05:58
All depends on the hand you got doing it.My last U.A. job they had 30 hours of weld time per joint on 24 inch schedule 60,7/8 thick.They had it bid for 4 welders and 2 fitters.My brother in law partner and I were cranking them out,we did one as fast as we could in 4 hours(8 man hours total).After we figured out what they bid it at we slowed it up a bit and made 6 hours out of them.Our three man crew 2 welders,one fitter and a foreman completed the job in half the time it was bid at.Contractor wasn't happy but the client was,maxium bid not to exceed clause.Paid on time and materials.They had another set of guys weld one joint and the kodak moment was sketchy and it took them 3 days to get one joint done,They sent them to socket weld job. My old used to be an estimator in a ship yard,he always said you had to know who was going to be doing the work and their skill in order to be able to cut the bid pretty close. By ssbn727
Date 11-12-2009 06:44 Edited 11-12-2009 06:48
Hi Dwayne! 1.) This gentleman has some very good MSN Excel based welding software for cost estimating, and at a reasonable price as well... Btw, Pipewelder 1999 (Gerald) recommends his products as well... Here's his link: http://www.mruczekweldingengineering.citymax.com/software.html Here's the products page: http://www.mruczekweldingengineering.citymax.com/products.html here's a link to the ESAB university site which will give you a free lesson on how to estimate welding costs: http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/AWTC/Lesson9_1.htm Here's one from Canada's Conestoga College: http://www.cwa-acs.org/members/journal/CWA_Winter2008GallowayCostCalc.xls Scroll down towards the bottom of the page... It's the second to last software application named: "e-weld 3.0 ML" click the download button and you'll see a .exe file to save and check for viruses on the lower right side of your screen. http://www.sharetool.com/Business/Calculators/Download_List_3.html Now, If you want what looks like the "Cadillac" of welding estimation software, then TWI (The Welding Institute of the UK has a software application that goes for over $500.00, but it covers just about everything you cna imagine and looks very user friendly, so here's the video demo link: http://www.twisoftware.com/demos/flash/Welding%20Estimator.htm Here's the main page fo it as well: http://www.twisoftware.com/products/products.jsp?product_id=10 This one is called "MIT Calc 1.50 and all you need to do is to click the download button on the lower right area of the box and an .exe file will appear for you to save it where you want it, so you can check it for any viruses before opening it first! So here's the link: http://www.freedownloadmanager.org/downloads/welding-24723.html Metarinka who participates in here, has an MS excel based software application for cost estimating and a weld strength calculator, but bear in mind that it's formulated for GMAW (MIG) and GTAW (TIG) only, yet I think it can be modified somewhat (You might want to pick his brain on that ;) ) in order to be used in estimating weld costs with the FCAW-S (Flux cored self shielded) process as well... here's the link to the thread where he posted this software application. Look for it on the last post in the thread: http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=105308;hl=calculator The Procedure Hand book of Arc Welding has a very good chapter on estimating welding cost also, so if you have the 13th Edition or better, from Lincoln Electric and you're pretty good with MSN Excel software, you could probably develop your own software application that would be tailor made to most of your type of work besides large diameter piping as well. Anywho, I'm tired and gonna hit the rack so, I hope this stuff helps friend! ;) Respectfully, Henry By ssbn727
Date 11-12-2009 16:37
Hey Dwayne! Here's another one for you to check out: http://cspec.com/ Btw, pipe is more than just flat plate rolled into a cylinder and welded together as seamless pipe is made from round bar... Extrude a predetermined round length, run it through a piercing mill which essentially turns it into pipe, then run it through a few other steps involved for sizing, precision and surface considerations and the final product is a piece of pipe with no seam! This method clearly shows that the material did not originate from plate. Pipe can also be spun cast form a casting as in stainless pipe as well so it all depends on what the material started out as in determining what type of pipe one has such as: a round for seamless, an ingot for plate, or a casting in the case of spun cast stainless pipe. ;) Respectfully, Henry By pipewelder_1999
Date 11-12-2009 17:07
I don't know if Cspec has anything for estimating in the works buy if anyone ever needs a live demo or more information, please contact me. It's my opinion that welding time in combination with other aspects of getting a weld completed could vary greatly from situation to situation. For large diameter pipe I would be looking closely at a semi auto process. Regardless, the variables can be broken down into individual components if needed. Keeping a detailed history of actual times for specific tasks can really make things meankngfull in the future. By Cactusthewelder
Date 11-12-2009 23:57
Henry, I am aware of the pipe making processes. Like I said in several post, I post alot of BS (as you do) just to get a rise out of a certain few and it works EVERY time By TRC
Date 11-13-2009 00:23
BUGO - cut your time dramatically By Cactusthewelder
Date 11-13-2009 00:49
I do not like the BUGO for one reason. First and foremost I am a welder. The BUGO eliminates the welder (for the most part). It sure cuts down on the number of welders needed. Therefore, NO BUGO'S By ssbn727
Date 11-13-2009 03:15
So the cactus plant speaks out - huh? Careful now! keep stepping on the toes of those who support you and sooner than later, you're left on your own - Capeche? Respectfully, Henry
By Cactusthewelder
Date 11-13-2009 03:43
The certain few I try to get a rise out of have never and will not ever support me. And if those were the ones I had to count on, I would rather be on my own- Capeche? Also Respectfully, Cactus By ssbn727
Date 11-13-2009 03:57
[deleted]
By Cactusthewelder
Date 11-13-2009 12:53 Edited 11-13-2009 12:57
Henry, I think there has been a small misunderstanding. I am VERY grateful for the help and input on the wires. All I was refering to was the part of the Post concerning how Pipe was made. I thought that was carried over from my remark about pipe being nothing more than a round peice of plate. In no way did I intend to sound ungrateful for advice, Especially when it was advice I ASK FOR. BTW I have taken the advice of Yourself annd several others in here and I have the Factory bringing me a Dualsheild sample. Like I said. I thought you were poking a little fun and I was just poking back. Although we have had a disagreement now and then, it was professional. I have always respected what you have to say.Like I said a misunderstanding. My apologies. Cactus By Metarinka
Date 11-13-2009 16:41
My vote is for the one by that Metarinka guy.... It was developed for GMAW and GTAW but from a costing standpoint FCAW and GMAW would be the same as they are both wire fed processes. I didn't do anything specific for SMAW because at the time my facility didn't use it, the only thing to take into account for stick would be the electrode efficiency as you have an economically significant amount of spatter, and stubbies. I believe in the version I have posted I left out that information. I need to update that thing... that's not my newest revision... By G.S.Crisi
Date 11-12-2009 23:36
There's an excellent book written by John Page titled "The piping erection manhours estimator's manual", published by Gulf Publishing Co. of Houston. Giovanni S. Crisi Sao Paulo - Brazil By ronnie taylor
Date 11-13-2009 00:31 Edited 11-13-2009 00:34
"The piping erection manhours estimator's manual" Surely they could have came up with a better title.:)
By G.S.Crisi
Date 11-13-2009 15:49
Ronnie, I've done a quick search on Gulf Publishing Co.'s website and found out that the actual title is "Estimator's piping manhours manual". Hope this title meets your approval. Cheers. Giovanni S. Crisi By ronnie taylor
Date 11-13-2009 15:52
just kidden around no need to get sh**y!!!!!
By cwf07
Date 11-14-2009 03:29
Do $30.00 or what ever you want times ft of weld like ( 50ft of weld 50x30= $1500.00 less weld add more per ft. ) By tnhnt
Date 11-14-2009 06:54
Hey Cactus a 72" 1/2" wall bell and spigot usually draws around $264 to $270. With what your looking at with a single 30 degree bevel a guy should be able to fill that with no more than 6 pass's and can be welded in under 2 1/2 hours. We run the LN-25's and the LN-25 pro's and the wire we use is the hobart excel arc E71T wich is a dual shield wire... Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Pipe welding estimates - General Welding Discussion