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"My Soil Bearing Report (I am in Illinois) describes the soil..." - Mirek (1/9/2005) "Mirek,1. How far down is your frost line. If you ..." - Peter (1/9/2005) "Thanks Peter! That's a lot of good questions and I don&#..." - Mirek (1/10/2005) "Mirek,>>As far as I can understand, the tests were don..." - Peter (1/10/2005) "Merik, thanks for asking so many questions! I was begi..." - Karla (1/10/2005) "Ditto on Peter. Everything he has said is _exactly_ what yo..." - John (1/11/2005) "Mirek,I found this today in one of my books.Concrete footing..." - Peter (1/11/2005) "Peter, I have to disagree with one thing: "YOU NE..." - Tom (1/12/2005) "Tom,I agree with what you said...Updated Statement:YOU NEVER..." - Peter (1/12/2005) "Peter,Thanks for opening my eyes.I called the company that d..." - Mirek (1/12/2005) "Peter, I was going to comment on the clay thing too, but ..." - Tom (1/14/2005) "Mirek,The comment by the soils engineer about "Not bein..." - Peter (1/18/2005) "Really good information on the soil bearing report. Be..." - Ross (2/11/2005)
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Mirek's Forum Posts: 10 Private Message
By Mirek in Barrington, IL on 1/9/2005 My Soil Bearing Report (I am in Illinois) describes the soil as "Loose brown SILT, saturater (ML)" with the soil 2 feet below basement footing grade being "Gray SILT saturated (ML)." What does it mean and how does it affect the building project? Whom should I consult with? I can still get out of the lot purchase deal, should I? Reply...
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By Peter in Gilford, NH on 1/9/2005 Mirek, 1. How far down is your frost line. If you don't know, you can ask your local building department. 2. How far down is the water table? 3. Any idea how far down bedrock is. 4. Was this information from a perk test or other test?
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5. What kind of foundation are you going to use? 6. What is the terrain of the lot? First a caveat, I'm not a soils engineer, but simply passing along the information I know building my own house and dealing with such questions. There is several basic questions about the soils. 1. What is it's weight bearing capacity. There is a special tool, looks like a spring loaded wine bottle opener that can test your soil bearing capacity. It's about $55 bucks. I forget the name of the tool, but these guys have them: http://www.wasteinc.com . It's called a pentometer or something like that. Just tell them you want the tool that tests the bearing capacity. How you use the thing: You dig a hole below the frost line. The top of the footer must sit below the frost line. So in my area (New England), the frost line is 4 feet, the footer height is 1 foot, so dig a hole five feet down (think backhoe). If at five feet down, you are still digging in topsoil, keep digging deeper. Make sure you don't overdig (dig deeper than needed because you need to do the test on virgin soil). Then you take out this tool, spring load it and fire it into the ground a couple of times. It will tell you what the soil bearing capacity. The higher the number, the better. But in some places like wine country in CA, the top soil goes down 12 feet, so they build houses that float on footers 3 feet wide. My footers are 20" wide. 2. How high is the water table? If you hit water while you dig, you have a new set of problems. You could put in drainage to drain the water away, but the lot better be well suited to a gravity solution. If you are in a swamp, find a new lot. If your footer sits in a pool of water, the concrete will fail over time and your foundation will be a swimming pool. Spring is the best time for this test, because the seasonal water table is at it's highest. A soils engineer will be able to guess at your water table because they can see it in the test pit (depending on the soil type). I built on a lot at the top of a mountain, but the water table is only 20" down. If you hit water while digging, take a measurement. Look in the sidewalls for the water table as you dig. 3. What kind of soil do you have? The kind of soil affects how much it will shift after you put your foundation on it. Soils that have a lot of clay are very bad for building foundations, because they retain water and shift in cold cycles. If you take a scoop of the soil from the bottom of your hole and put it in your hand. Then slowly moisten it using a pump sprayer to see if you can turn it into a ball. If you can make meatballs, you have a lot of clay and might have a probelm. Clay without water doesn't look like clay, so you must add water. There are several websites that talk about the soil types. You only care about the soil on which you are going to put your footers on. 4. If you hit ledge/bedrock, you might have to blast (which can be expensive and take extra time for the extra permits). To determine if you have any ledge, you need to dig several test pits. Another way to guess, is to look at other houses in the area. If they have these really nice big boulders in the middle of the gardens or retaining walls, they were not likely purchased at home depot. 5. Lastly, (if you want to go the extra mile), the ph level of the soil can attack the rebar in your foundation causing it to fail. There are ways around this: by making sure your foundation doesn't touch the ground. You put heavy non-biodegradable plastic under the footers, the slab and side walls. Lastly, you might want to do the digging outside where you plan to put the house. YOU NEVER WANT TO OVERDIG WHERE YOU PLAN TO PUT THE FOUNDATION. The only way to really correct this is to pour more concrete, because you can't simply fill it in and pack it down. Special engineering might be needed if you find that somebody else has been here before you. Many sites in New England were previouly developed. If somone in the past has dug up the site before you, then you need an engineer to deal with the fact your not on virgin soil. Let us know the answers to the questions at the top. Also, there is several good books from Tauton Press on building foundations. I puchased 3 or 4 on the subject before I poured my foundation. Peter Reply...
Mirek's Forum Posts: 10 Private Message
By Mirek in Barrington, IL on 1/10/2005 Thanks Peter! That's a lot of good questions and I don't have all the answers yet. The lot is in a brand new subdivision. The test results I was referring to were given to me by the developer of the subdivision. They are being referred to as Soil Test Report. I copied portions of the report referring to my lot (103) and posted it at http://home.comcast.net/~mirekkubik/soil/soilreport.pdf As far as I can understand, the tests were done using a tool similar to the one you described. According to the report, lot 103 has almost 27% of moisture content at basement footing grade. How bad is it? Would you consider that the water table?
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The letter also says that the soil may be capable of supporting 3000 lb/sq ft if 2 feet of that soil are removed and replaced with gravel. I am planning a 9ft basement with a standard concrete foundation. The plans call for 3000 lb/sq ft bearing. I really appreciate your help. Mirek Reply...
Peter's Forum Posts: 68 Interview Answers: 1 Private Message
By Peter in Gilford, NH on 1/10/2005 Mirek, >>As far as I can understand, the tests were done using a tool similar to the one you described. I don't think they have done a bearing test. Instead they are relying on the type of soil to determine bearing. Since you have the telephone number of the company who did the analysis. I would call them. I would ignore what the developer has to say on the subject. >>According to the report, lot 103 has almost 27% of moisture content at basement footing grade. How bad is it? Would you consider that the water table? I don't find the moisture content a useful number. Depending on how much rain you have had, the soil will have more water. Soil below the water table is saturated (seating in a pool of water). The water table is the level of water at the surface. Usually, in the spring the water table is higher (due to spring rains) and lower at the end of summer. A seasonal high water mark can be found in the soils (similar to the high water mark on a piling at the ocean). If you dig down and a puddle develops at the bottom of your pit, you have hit the water table. Remember that is will be higher later in the spring.
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You can lower the water level by installing drainage pipe around (and inside the foundation). But if you cannot find a point on your lot which is lower than the bottom of your foundation, you will have to install a sump pump. Also there might be issues on where you can drain the water. Depending on local regulations, you can't drain water onto the street, a septic field and onto a neighbor's lot. And if your foundation located at the bottom of a hill or dead flat, or the bottom of a bowl, there might not be anywhere to pump the water to. Lastly, I have heard there is some towns that are restricting building on lots that have a high water tables. With all this mold scares, nothing starts mold faster than water in the basement. Last resort options are to not build a full basement or to build it out of the ground some. My neighbor here has built his full foundation by reducing ceiling hight by a foot and raising the foundation 2 feet and raising the grade around the foundation. He hit ledge at six feet. Remember water is a separate issue from bearing capacity. >>The letter also says that the soil may be capable of supporting 3000 lb/sq ft if 2 feet of that soil are removed and replaced with gravel. If you do the test with the $55 dollar device, you will know it's bearing capacity. I read from their statement, the soil will not support 3000 lbs per square foot. Regarding the gravel they suggest. When you have insufficent bearing capacity, there is two things you can do: 1. make your footers wider (and stronger) to spread the weight out a greater area. You said your foundation requires 3000 lb per square foot. If you have soils that have a bearing capacity of 1500, you would need a 2+ foot wide footer. A 2000 bearing capacity soil would require 18" footer. etc. 2. The other option is to try to improve the bearing capacity of the soil by improving it with gravel. The weight of the foundation bears down and spreads out at a 45 degree angle into the soil. So soil a foot below your footer will not be a the same pressure as the soil that meets the footer. By installing gravel under the footer and at a 45 degree spread, you are in essance building a wider footer by spreading the load from the footer, into the gravel and out at a 45 degree angle into the ground. This requires that the gravel be highly compacted. Their suggestion about tamping with the bucket would not work. If it was me, I would put in lifts of 6" gravel and compact with a plate compactor or better yet a walk behind compactor. You might also put in some other small rock to interlock with the gravel to bind and lock it together. The gravel approach is more risky because it also has assumptions about the bearing capacity of the soil below the gravel and assumes the gravel will not shift. The good news is the gravel approach is good for drainage of the water (if that turns out to be a problem). Nothing has been said in the report about ledge. I would ask the developer if anyone else has hit ledge. He should know. The one thing you can't do is have some of the foundation on ledge and the rest on soil. The soil will settle and crack the slab and foundation walls (differential settlement). Remeber too that a builders warranty is usually only good for a year, so there can be a very short term focus by many in the biz; but you want your foundation to last a lifetime. In Penn. where my folks live they built a mall (big mall, sears, J.C Penny, etc.) on top of the local landfill. It took only three years and the soil had settled 6 1/2 feet and cracked every foundation in the place. They had to tear down the mall and it's now a very nice field. The mall is now on the other side of the street. So I would call the company who did the anaylsis for the builder and ask them what they think about building on your lot. I would ask the builder about the ledge and I would make sure there was somewhere to drain water. Peter P.S. Let us know what you find out... Reply...
Karla's Forum Posts: 15 Journal Entries: 10 Interview Answers: 64 Private Message
By Karla in Silver Springs, NV on 1/10/2005 Merik, thanks for asking so many questions! I was beginning to feel like we had actually accomplished some research when you opened up a whole new world of considerations for us! And Thank You, Peter, for your answers, and even more questions to ask! Reply...
Image from Karla's blog Login to Vote 2004, 2005, 2006 Merit Award By John in Erie, CO on 1/11/2005 Winner John's Forum Posts: 278 Interview Answers: 69 Private Message
Ditto on Peter. Everything he has said is _exactly_ what you need to do. (I was on rock, so these issues didn't pop up) but don't listen to the developer when it comes to this, and do all this research BEFORE you buy the lot. Also, make any lot contract contingent upon accetable soils test results. If soils tests (paid for by you, not the developer) come back indicating an exotic foundation, but you really like the lot, you can use this as power to negotiate your lot price down. Good luck, John Reply...
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By Peter in Gilford, NH on 1/11/2005 Mirek, I found this today in one of my books. Concrete footings should be placed on firm, undisturbed soil that is free from orgainic material. Soil types are tested and rated as to their ability to support loads (bearing capacity). Soil Type Bearing Capacity (psf)
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Soft clay or silt DO NOT BUILD Medium clay or silt 1,500 - 2,200 Stiff clay or silt 2,200 - 2,500 Loose sand 1,800 - 2,000 Dense sand 2,500 - 3,000 Gravel 2,5000 - 3,000 Bedrock 4,000 and up Compaction of the soil may be required before footings are placed (to achieve these numbers). Peter Reply...
Tom's Forum Posts: 42 Private Message
By Tom in Yosemite, CA on 1/12/2005 Peter, I have to disagree with one thing: "YOU NEVER WANT TO OVERDIG WHERE YOU PLAN TO PUT THE FOUNDATION. " Actually, this is wrong insofar as it says "never" where it should say "generally". Sometimes you MUST overdig (this from my brother who is a civil engineer).
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If you are building on expansive soils, you may have to overdig by, say, three feet, and then refill with properly compacted non-expansive soils.
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You are right that you don't want to overdig and then just throw dirt back in there. If you overdig, you want to do so on the advice of an engineer and you want to have the new fill properly compacted and tested again for bearing capacity. Reply...
Peter's Forum Posts: 68 Interview Answers: 1 Private Message
By Peter in Gilford, NH on 1/12/2005 Tom, I agree with what you said... Updated Statement: YOU NEVER WANT TO OVERDIG WHERE YOU PLAN TO PUT THE FOUNDATION UNLESS you do so on the advice of an engineer and have the new fill properly compacted and tested again for bearing capacity. Peter
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P.S. I read through my posts and did find one error (and many typo's), clay is a problem because it expands and shrinks when water is added and removed (not because of freeze/thaw cycles).
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Mirek's Forum Posts: 10 Private Message
By Mirek in Barrington, IL on 1/12/2005 Peter, Thanks for opening my eyes. I called the company that did all the testing (for the seller) and they assured me that "the property is buildable." They will be able to provide more information after excavation. According to them the worst that can happen, I will have to remove some of the silt and replace it with gravel. When I asked about the water table, the answer was not so clear (red flag) The engineer said that it is probably 2 feet below my footing grade (without asking what my f/g is) because it has to be at least 2 feet or I won't be allowed to build. Huh?
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I talked to two GCs who are preparing estimates for me. They both agreed that it is a risk and they would not buy this lot for themselves: 1) initial cost of excavation, gravel placement, footing, waterproofing, additional sump pumps, etc. 2) great risk of cracks in the foundation later (additional cost to repair) 3) greater risk of basement flooding, mold, etc. I talked to a friend OB who had to build on a similar property. He ended up replacing most of the soil and installing 3 sump pumps. I guess it's back to lot hunting for me. I hate this part. It took me almost four months to find this one. When I finally got to the fun part of designing, planning and budgeting I have to take this huge step back. Well, things do happen for a reason. At least I am totally convinced that I want to owner-build. I know much more about soil types, too. There's got to be a better lot out there... Thanks again, Mirek Reply...
Tom's Forum Posts: 42 Private Message
By Tom in Yosemite, CA on 1/14/2005 Peter, I was going to comment on the clay thing too, but I was having such trouble posting that day. Freeze/thaw can create a problem anytime there is poor drainage or the footings don't go deep enough. Even if the footings are deep, the pressure can push the wals in.
Clay is a problem everywhere. There are clays that can expand to 15x their dry volume given enough water. So even inTexas this can be a problem. There was a Fine Home Building article about a guy building in Texas who had to sink piers 20' down below his footings because of the clay in the soil. Reply...
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Peter's Forum Posts: 68 Interview Answers: 1
Mirek,
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The comment by the soils engineer about "Not being able to build" because of water table is becoming more and more common. What I don't know is if you lower the water table around your foundation by using drainage pipe and sump pumps, can you still build? The local building department would be able to help. In general, after having a sump pump that went on every 20 seconds for months at a time in my current house, I decided that I would only look at lots that used gravity drainage; i.e. lots that had some slope to them and an outlet for the water. When we first looked at land, the realtor said to us that all the properties she was going to show us involved some sort of compromise. The hard part is choosing those things you can live with and those you can't.
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The old adage was Location, Location, Location. But for us OB's, it should be Location, Non-Expansive Soils and Drainage.
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Good luck and glad to help. Peter P.S. The APA has a number of PDFs on building topics that you might find useful. The following link is to their publication on building water-resistant basements (I decided against the words "waterproof basements" because I'm not sure they really exist). http://www.apawood.org/pdfs/managed/A520.pdf Reply... By Ross in KS on 2/11/2005
Ross's Forum Posts: 2 Interview Answers: 1
Really good information on the soil bearing report. Before buying land, are there any other inspections that you would recommend I get before I close on the land. I have read where plasticity can be a problem in some places, Texas. I live in Kansas, and I don't think it is a problem here. I will be building in the country so I will need a septic tank also.
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Any help would be appreciated, Thanks Ross Randomly Selected Image
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